School of Hard Knocks is bad game design.

27 Pandaren Mage
9625
"A Long Strange Trip" is a great idea for a meta meta achievement.

I love that it encompasses a huge variety of events and activites throughout the year. It requires you to run ridiculous errands, perform long grinds, and demonstrate ingenuity, cleverness, cooperation and determination. I have been working on this diligently for 2 years believing that if I keep working at it, I will finally get my Drake.

And then... School of Hard Knocks.

I haven't completely given up yet. I will keep trying this week. And maybe I will be lucky -- VERY lucky and actually pull this off in time. But I don't think so. I don't PVP. I don't do it, I don't understand it and I don't like it. I spent 4 hours last night getting stunlocked and nuked over and over and over again and did not get even CLOSE to completing ONE of the 4 requirements for this achievement. I am not familiar with the battlegrounds and I am so bad at this part of the game that I really don't think I have a prayer of completing this in one week – even if I completely give up playing every other part of the game and devote myself to this horrible chore. I could spend 40 nightmarish hours doing PVP this week and still not succeed.

Is it reasonable to create a massive PVE meta meta achievement and then add a poison PVP pill like this? I find it incredibly frustrating and disappointing. If the meta required you to complete these 4 objectives with no time limitation, I think it would be fine. I could continue to beat my head against the wall week after week and, Hey! maybe I would get better at pvp in the process and maybe even over time, I might come to ENJOY pvp just a little bit. This seems like a fair way to design a difficult achievement.

But I have ONE WEEK to achieve this goal that I am completely unprepared for. I don't have the gear and I don't have the skills. And it's just completely demoralizing. In order to achieve this goal I will likely have to wait another year and invest a bunch of time getting good at a game I don't like (PVP).

Good game design makes you want to play more. This makes me want to unsub.

Please Blizzard, I'm asking you as a loyal player who loves this game. Please take another look at this achievement. I don't think it brings much satisfaction to anyone, but it brings misery and pain to many many players who love the game.

Thanks
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90 Goblin Rogue
FTW
18120
Every year there are a ton of these threads complaining and complaining about this achieve saying it's impossible to do 4 tasks that get done on a daily basis. They're straight foward in what it's asking, you don't need to be prepared or good at pvp to get these done just deal with it like everyone else.
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90 Tauren Hunter
9625
Every year there are a ton of these threads complaining and complaining about this achieve saying it's impossible to do 4 tasks that get done on a daily basis. They're straight foward in what it's asking, you don't need to be prepared or good at pvp to get these done just deal with it like everyone else.


If there are a ton of threads complaining every year, then maybe a lot of people are unhappy. Maybe it's time to pay attention.

These are NOT straightforward to someone who doesn't do PVP. I can't even get close to a flag and I honestly can't even tell what is going on most of the time. I spend half the battle stunlocked and the other half waiting to rez. It. Is. Not. Fun. If I had known that there was going to be a wall like this at the end of the achievement, I wouldn't have spent so much time grinding out all the other acheivements.
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90 Undead Warlock
10545
How do you think the PvPers feel when they "have to" do PvE achievements? There's a ton of titles and mounts that come from raiding achievements yet you don't see a PvPer complaining about how "scripted encounters aren't fun" so they deserve the rewards. You can choose not to get the Violet Drake or the title, much like how PvPers can choose not to be Fearless, Storm's End, etc. God forbid people put effort into an achievement, I don't really see how this is different than the boring dailies and grinds of other holidays. Blizzard has done a lot to make PvP more accessible; I don't have the achievement yet because last year there was no such thing as base resilience but I'll be sure to get it this year.

As for actual tips: I'm waiting until the last few days when there are likely to be more PvPers, less competition for the achievement, and less intentional griefing. I recommend not queuing at odd hours to reduce the chance of getting paired up with bots. Do you have any JP lying about? Convert to honor and buy some honor gear. It's better than some of the gear you are wearing now. 480+ raid gear is good enough for random bgs. Put the CCs you'd never think you'd use on your bars: without PvP power, you should focus on more supporting your team. AV is almost a PvE bg, but I recommend queuing with a friend so you can go together to a tower, clear the mobs quickly, and click on the flags. Do you have a tank alt? Tanks generally have a better time with survivability and being in melee range means you can click on flags/objectives faster. If gear disparity is an issue for you, you don't have to do the achievement at max level iirc; lower level bgs are generally easier, make sure to keep XP on so you don't run into twinks. Look up strategies on what to do on different sites. If a basic Google search is beneath you, then mount and achievement hunting isn't for you.

There's lots of solutions and people just choose to whine instead of try.
Edited by Gothitelle on 4/30/2013 2:19 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
20370
04/30/2013 01:21 PMPosted by Stygimoloch
If there are a ton of threads complaining every year, then maybe a lot of people are unhappy. Maybe it's time to pay attention.

Nope its time people get off their lazy butts and try to do easy tasks if they want an achievement. I'm terrible at pvp, I have the achievement. No excuse for you.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
15455
If Blizz wants to make a PVP aspect to an achievment it should be based more on winning a BG than doing a specific goal in one. For the PVPers what is so hard they have to do in a PVE environment? Join a group of 5 people, run an instance, and achievment is complete for EVERYBODY not just one person. In this particular achievment its you vs many other people attempting to get the same goal in which you get no credit for. Return a flag in WSG- you vs whoever else is on EFC and whoever is escorting them trying to keep you from doing it. EoTS you vs 29 other people trying to do same thing. AV you vs 39 teammates trying for it and 40 people trying to keep you from it.
It would be more appealing for those who don't like or understand PVP to alter the requirements such as - be in a tower when its capped, be close to flag when it's returned, be on the base when the flag is captured. Something like that would be more obtainable and less objectionable to non PVPers and would be less frustrating for the PVPers who are there to win BGs.
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90 Goblin Rogue
FTW
18120
Blizzard is not going to pay attention to the handful of complainers when the majority can do the achievement.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
17085
Blizzard is not going to pay attention to the handful of complainers when the majority can do the achievement.


Have done the achievement. It's been going on for like 5 years and thousands/millions of people have it completed.

Blizzard said that this achievement encompasses Everything in the World of Warcraft to a degree and they have no plans to change that aspect. It's supposed to take long (used to take a minimum of 3 years just to get the pet achievement), it's supposed to be strange (you may be doing things you've never done before), it's supposed to be hard (was harder originally, especially when things glitched, but a lot of the events have been nerfed for the babies).

My druid took three years cuz in year 2, she had the 3rd flag ready to plant in EotS and the time turned over past midnite and the event ended! Was kinda funny and groan-worthy.

It's something to do but not even that pertinent since all mounts are whatever speed you trained. Originally, we couldn't get 310% speed mounts unless you were high-end raiders or PvPer. So times have changed.
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90 Undead Warrior
17870
Blizzard is not going to pay attention to the handful of complainers when the majority can do the achievement.


This.

Why should they cater to bads?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
18115
Honestly? I'm not so much irritated at the achievement as I am at the other players *on my own team*. I have one part to do. Return a flag in wsg. I don't return flags *and I pvp regularly*, but I play a healer so my role is to keep our flag carrier alive. It's very rare I'm out there.

So I join our team, ask if anyone else is after this achievement. No one is. So I ask if they mind me sticking with the offense just to return the first flag, get the achievement, then go back to my regularly scheduled 'keep our fc alive'.

They say sure. We nuke their fc, the flag drops, there is NO alliance around... and they wait till I run up to click on it, click the flag and emote /laugh at me. It happened twice, before I just gave up and finished the bg.

The achievement didn't make me sad and frustrated and want to give up, my fellow players did.
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40 Draenei Priest
11390
I think the main part of the problem most folks have with "The School of Hard Knocks" is you have to rely on others who would prefer not to help you.

If they tweaked "School of Hard Knocks" to just "Win 5 of any of the Battlegrounds listed with your Orphan out" then, maybe I would do it. That adjustment puts the player all in to contributing and winning the Battleground, instead of begging and pleading to carry a damn flag, while a few of the regular PvPers act like asshats keepng it away from you..

We all do things we don't like to do, especially if it means we get something we want in the end.
Edited by Onaeva on 5/1/2013 1:53 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Death Knight
12795
Lots of people can, and probably will, tell me to suck it up, play better, do something you don't like if you 'really' want the achieve that badly. Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to argue it shouldn't be worked for, I"m not here to argue it shouldn't involve a pvp aspect, hell I love having to break into enemy cities for some of the others, but in all honesty it does legitimately seem just a bad idea for an achievement. The numbers are against you, everywhere. Other players, your gear, and if you're someone like me you pc specs/internet connection.

The last thing I want to do is join WSG all week with the sole focus in mind of 'return a flag'. That is not what the random finder is for. I know for a fact not a single person who pvp's even casually that I've run into so far appreciates my lack of skill and lack of contribution, yet the ONLY way for me to get the achievement is to go in there and get it done. Not to mention it pulls me away from whatever else I could be doing, rep grinds, alt leveling, raid finder, etc. Sure, I choose to turn my attention to this painful and agonizing grind, but it's a relatively narrow window of opporunity, raids will still be around once the event is over, orphans will not.

Yes I will grind my head against the wall, for the entirety of the week, and if I don't get it then sure, there's always next year, but does that mean an entire year of effort should be underminded because of one 'simple' objective?

There are dozens of simple and efficient fixes to this problem, yet I can rest assured little will be done to address it. Im not surprised, developers have more than enough to deal with, trying to keep the patch turnover at a good speed, balancing actual pvp issues, fixing other bugs, but it's still something that should be added to an agenda, somewhere, for review at least.

I'll quit my pointless ranting I suppose, wether you support me or not the result will end up being the same, nothing will likely end up being done. So to those out there also having a hard time, stay strong and perservere, maybe find some pals to give you a hand.
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90 Tauren Hunter
9625
05/01/2013 02:26 AMPosted by Vispiasting
I'm not here to argue it shouldn't be worked for, I"m not here to argue it shouldn't involve a pvp aspect,


Yes I will grind my head against the wall, for the entirety of the week, and if I don't get it then sure, there's always next year, but does that mean an entire year of effort should be underminded because of one 'simple' objective?


These are my feelings exactly. I have no problem with adding PVP objectives to the meta. The thing that seems unfair is to give only one week out of the year to do this. It is SUCH a hostile environment in there. Not just the other team, MY team too. Everyone is working against me. No one cares. Asking for help just gets you mocked. It is truly an awful feeling.
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"A Long Strange Trip" is a great idea for a meta meta achievement.

I love that it encompasses a huge variety of events and activites throughout the year. It requires you to run ridiculous errands, perform long grinds, and demonstrate ingenuity, cleverness, cooperation and determination. I have been working on this diligently for 2 years believing that if I keep working at it, I will finally get my Drake.

And then... School of Hard Knocks.

I haven't completely given up yet. I will keep trying this week. And maybe I will be lucky -- VERY lucky and actually pull this off in time. But I don't think so. I don't PVP. I don't do it, I don't understand it and I don't like it. I spent 4 hours last night getting stunlocked and nuked over and over and over again and did not get even CLOSE to completing ONE of the 4 requirements for this achievement. I am not familiar with the battlegrounds and I am so bad at this part of the game that I really don't think I have a prayer of completing this in one week – even if I completely give up playing every other part of the game and devote myself to this horrible chore. I could spend 40 nightmarish hours doing PVP this week and still not succeed.

Is it reasonable to create a massive PVE meta meta achievement and then add a poison PVP pill like this? I find it incredibly frustrating and disappointing. If the meta required you to complete these 4 objectives with no time limitation, I think it would be fine. I could continue to beat my head against the wall week after week and, Hey! maybe I would get better at pvp in the process and maybe even over time, I might come to ENJOY pvp just a little bit. This seems like a fair way to design a difficult achievement.

But I have ONE WEEK to achieve this goal that I am completely unprepared for. I don't have the gear and I don't have the skills. And it's just completely demoralizing. In order to achieve this goal I will likely have to wait another year and invest a bunch of time getting good at a game I don't like (PVP).

Good game design makes you want to play more. This makes me want to unsub.

Please Blizzard, I'm asking you as a loyal player who loves this game. Please take another look at this achievement. I don't think it brings much satisfaction to anyone, but it brings misery and pain to many many players who love the game.

Thanks


The bolded statement is what really stood out to me.

You won't put in a little effort to farm the mats to make the crafted PVP gear? (or just buy it if you're good with saving gold). It's on the calendar, so it's not like you didn't know this was coming.
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90 Undead Warlock
5805
That time of year already?
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90 Tauren Hunter
9625
You won't put in a little effort to farm the mats to make the crafted PVP gear? (or just buy it if you're good with saving gold). It's on the calendar, so it's not like you didn't know this was coming.


I have a full set of crafted 450 pvp gear plus a few 465 pieces. It doesn't seem to be helping.

How long should people have to prepare for an achievement that lasts a week? How much PVP training is it reasonable to expect someone to do leading up to children's week? I feel like I'm being asked to play Halo for 8 hours a day for a week to have a chance at this achievement. I don't have that kind of time to commit.

***btw I am the OP. I'm not sure why it posted my alt at the top of the thread.
Edited by Stygimoloch on 5/1/2013 8:27 AM PDT
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People have been complaining for at least four years now, and Blizz employees play WoW too. They know the reaction stirred by the mere mention of SoHK at any time of the year, and I'd be surprised if some of the Blizzard folks didn't feel the same way. However, I'd also be surprised if they made any kind of changes simply because so many players have managed to do what's essentially clicking on four flags before the other 9-79 players can.

I did it this year, didn't like it, glad it's over and I'm in the "if I can anyone can" camp. I agree that some tweaking could be beneficial for all involved. I'm not going to be a douche and berate the people who find it difficult, or be an !@#$%^ and berate the people who find it easy. Nobody is successful with 100% of the content in WoW. Get over yourself. Okay fine, maybe I'll just be -*!@#y to both.

All I can offer is the same as others: keep trying, don't give up. As cooperative as I wanted to be, both in helping the team win and with others doing the achievement, eventually I had to adopt the more selfish attitude and just charge for a flag. Frankly all I did was get some gear (some of which was an upgrade anyway), some swiftness pots, and practice the glyphs/talents/abilities that are handy for PvP, then try to stay alive as much as I could. I died a LOT anyway, sometimes got help from one side or the other, usually didn't. I lost count of how many times I queued, and have no desire to do PvP again...although after so much time spent in AV for this and Little Helper, it's kinda grown on me, I might do it some more.

Found these useful too:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4768348715?page=9#174
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=school+of+hard+knocks+wow&oq=school+of+hard+knocks+wow
http://www.wowhead.com/achievement=1786#comments:id=1031422
Edited by Drewb on 5/1/2013 9:53 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Hunter
11245
I completed the achievement in 2 hours yesterday. Granted I do a lot of PVP and have gear it was easy for me, so I can understand how it would be harder for those that don't. I would highly suggest that you ask your guildies (especially those that do PVP) to help you. I offer to help my guildies with the achievement all the time during Children's Week. It also helps if you mention ahead of time to your bg team that you are trying for the achievement.
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90 Goblin Warlock
1835
I am about to enrage so hard that I will be bestowed Gorschalach and a Red Corps Ring, I can't get in time to the AV part of the achievement.
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