School of Hard Knocks is bad game design.

95 Tauren Druid
9235
I have been trying to do this achievement ever since it first came out. Some of the parts were not so bad, but I'm finding it impossible to return the flag in WSG and to capture the flag in Eye of the Storm.

Maybe for people with DSL and Cable it might not be so difficult, but my only internet option is satellite and I have an upload delay which causes instant abilities to take 2 to 3 seconds to actually register. Any channeled type of activities that are not instant always take longer. So it will take 12 or 13 seconds or longer to grab a flag and usually I get interrupted within that last second. It is very frustrating. My latency ranges from around 780ms to 2500ms depending on weather and other factors. With this latency all movement impairing effects, stuns, roots, etc last longer than they should. I also run slower than everyone around me because the latency puts me behind where I should be, so it is easy for people to catch up with me when I try to run. Since none of my instant abilities are actually instant, it is very difficult to compete. I have actually killed players carrying flags but when I clicked to try to return it, my lag kicked in and someone else got it before me-- no matter how fast I clicked, it wouldn't go in time. To compound the problem, the orphan gives away my location if I try to use stealth.

I am dismayed at how uncooperative people on my own team are. As others here have said, most of the time requests for help are met with derision. It's bad enough to have to compete with the opposing faction for the flag (especially when many of them have under 100ms latency), but it is worse when people on my own side are griefing me.

I'm not going to QQ and say they should get rid of this achievement entirely, but I think that perhaps they should make some changes.

1. Have the orphan stealth when players stealth or camo so it won't give away our location
2. Maybe do what was done with some of the other achievements and make it so that we don't have to personally capture the flag or return a flag to base. Make it so that if we assist the person who does it and/or are within a certain range, we get credit.

If people are going to complain that it makes it too easy for those who are not capping the flag themselves, perhaps make it so it has to be 5 flags or something instead of just 1.

I really wish I could get the achievement this year, but thus far, I haven't had any luck. I'm going to keep trying, but it is disheartening. I wish there was some way to encourage players from griefing/blocking people of their own faction.

Also, I hope there will be plans to add an orphan chain in Pandaria. I would personally love to have the reward of a Pangolin battle pet. I was thrilled when I saw pangolins on the wandering isle, but was then very disappointed when they could not be captured. You have no idea how badly I want a pangolin. I have actually wanted to have a real one as a pet since 1994 when I first saw one in a museum.
Edited by Chayse on 5/2/2013 5:01 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Mage
9145
Nothing else to say about this achievement that hasn't already been said. It's kind of freaking terrible. I've had people tell me to "click quicker" "react more quickly", that sorta stuff. But here's the thing, I've suffered from grand mal seizures since I was a child, and understandably, my reaction time has suffered because of it, so I'm clicking as fast as I can to cap the flag and get the tower since those are the two objectives I have left, but I am simply unable to respond in time. Does that mean I should be screwed out of the meta?
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90 Draenei Priest
8850
Hunters, DKs, Pallys, Warriors. It's easy for you to recover the flag on WSG, or to take the flag on EotS. But not for a disc priest. We are fragile (and i have a ilvl of 479 for PvP, even 2 tyranical pieces). We do not fall headfirst on battle. We use cloth, FFS. We bubble, yes, but not like a pally. And we fear, but not THE WHOLE ENEMY TEAM. It's our job to sit on the back, heal, support, DO OUR JOB. So we don't see the flag. Maybe we can assault something... if a DK doesn't run in front of us. If we BEG to have a chance.

Oh, and let's not forget the ones that complain when we try to do the achiev. "No one's taking the towers!", says the PvPer who was having a good winning streak. Because we are on their way, trying to get the achiev. And sorry, it's not our fault. The game is just like that.

I remember when I started doing the metas for the World Events. It was awful, lots of horde camping, lots of peeps complaining, lots of deaths, lots of lost gold. But that was WORLD PvP, and we could face it somehow, even if we had to go stealth or wait for better hours. And I never complained. Because THAT was fun. Doing BGs, getting on other people's way, making THEIR game worst is NOT my idea of fun. I don't wanna play BGs to run achievs in which I must stop whatever I'm doing to settle this or that. I wanna play as a team and do my best as a priest.

Blizz, for the love of... well, all the gods here, take this out of the meta. Maintain the achiev, but please, remove it from the list. Otherwise... every year it'll be the same lame posts complaining.
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When an achievement pisses me off so much I want to throw my laptop through the <Blankity blank> window, then it's bad design. I don't PVP. I don't want to PVP. I don't like PVP. And to setup this achievement that takes you all frickin year long so that it forces me to do something I don't want to do and that pisses me off isn't a good idea.

I'm sure I can get the last 2 BG's I need but I am so pissed off doing it that it's ridiculous. I agree with a previous poster. Just make us have to win a BG with our kid out. Not do something that is hard to do in the first place for someone who HATES pvp. Oh did I mention that I'm so pissed after spending hours trying to get 2 BG's done?

This is NOT what the achievements were supposed do. Pissing people off shouldn't be the goal. Feeling a sense of accomplishment is. As others said too, if people constantly complain about this achievement, something is wrong. It's STUPID!

And, yes I know I don't have to do it, but when the Childen's Week is all that's standing between finishing this achievement, it's wrong. ARRRGGG!!
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90 Draenei Mage
10815
Well, all I can say is, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this achievement sucks Tauren testes. Misery loves company.
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90 Tauren Hunter
11330
Well, I pulled it off....sort of.

After about 4 hours of trying various BGs on my lvl 90 main, I completely gave up. I never got close. I was totally demoralized and disappointed. I took a couple of days off and, based on some suggestions from others, decided to try it on my level 45 monk.

What a difference!

Maybe PVP at level 90 is just more vicious. Or maybe there are just too many abilities and the game is too deep for a noob to have a chance. It was a stunlock nightmare and I was always dead before I knew what was happening. But at level 45, I could make sense out of it. I am not even very good with the monk, but the environment was totally manageable and I could see that I had a much better chance. It took about 6 hours to get all 4 objectives.

I still think the achievement is bad for the game. But I will add this caveat: Maybe it wasn't QUITE as bad 4 years ago. Maybe the PVP learning curve has gotten steeper, making this much more painful for PVE players than it would have been a few years ago.

I still firmly believe that the Blizzard Devs need to take a long hard look at this achieve. There is nothing else in the game that has EVER made me feel so much dread and frustration.
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100 Worgen Death Knight
13985
Well, I pulled it off....sort of.

After about 4 hours of trying various BGs on my lvl 90 main, I completely gave up. I never got close. I was totally demoralized and disappointed. I took a couple of days off and, based on some suggestions from others, decided to try it on my level 45 monk.

What a difference!

Maybe PVP at level 90 is just more vicious. Or maybe there are just too many abilities and the game is too deep for a noob to have a chance. It was a stunlock nightmare and I was always dead before I knew what was happening. But at level 45, I could make sense out of it. I am not even very good with the monk, but the environment was totally manageable and I could see that I had a much better chance. It took about 6 hours to get all 4 objectives.

I still think the achievement is bad for the game. But I will add this caveat: Maybe it wasn't QUITE as bad 4 years ago. Maybe the PVP learning curve has gotten steeper, making this much more painful for PVE players than it would have been a few years ago.

I still firmly believe that the Blizzard Devs need to take a long hard look at this achieve. There is nothing else in the game that has EVER made me feel so much dread and frustration.


I happen to agree with this that this has a bad design to it. For myself I do enjoy to PVP from time to time but this meta makes it more of a "you have to do this" rather than my normal casual, "I feel like pvp'ing today". Especially with the fact that you only have 1 week to do this and I have 2/4 on my 90 already but still feels like I may have to try it on a lowbie just to have a chance.Please at least tweak it so maybe instead of 4/4 make it 2/2 or any of the other suggestions such as being in proximity.

I pay to enjoy playing the game and with this being the only thing keeping me from "What a Long Strange Trip its Been" its discouraging with fellow teammates knowing you are going for this and the deliberately click the flag and than qq the heck out of you. This does not promote a desire to continue playing it makes people want to quit.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13170
I have spent hours tonight working on this achieve. It's not fair at all to those of us who don't pvp. We don't have the gear needed to survive long enough to assault a tower in alterac, and esp those who don't know the area can't get to the towers first to click on the flag.
Pvp players can still easily get pve gear, I can't just do a couple of lfrs and get pvp gear though.

It's too much to expect people who have put in a year of work to get to this point and have to just give up because they don't pvp.

I got my guild in to try to see if we could get it using war games (we could not). No one in my guild pvp's so that was feat in itself to get them to help me check. I've told people ahead of time and been told to "!@#$" and get out of the battle ground. I've also had people deliberately mess it up for me, ie I was right at the flag to click in warsong and a priest pulled me back from it with leap of faith for the fun of it.

Sure it would be fine if people would work with you on it, but we don't all have that.

I've just wasted a year's worth of events because people are jerks.
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100 Gnome Mage
16655
As someone who hates pvp and stinks at pvp (my method of pvping is to sheep the target and run like hell!), I agree that this part of the achievement is unreasonable. You get into bgs full of other people trying to do the same achievements along with the hardcore pvpers whose sole purpose in life seems to be to do what they can to make us non-pvpers miserable and unable to do the achievements. Add to that the other side who is doing the same thing, and it's just a recipe for disaster.

That all said, I was able to do the achievement the first year it was offered. My fiancé logged onto my toon and got a group of his friends together for the sole purpose of getting me the achievement. It cost me a couple thousand gold in bribe money (back when a couple thousand gold was a lot of money). I've talked to several other people who have said the same thing. The ONLY way for people like me to get this achievement is to get a group of friends together, hopefully with at least one or two people knowledgeable about and experienced at pvp/bgs, and who are willing to tip the scales in your favor.

As long as Blizzard insists on this achievement for part of the meta, there will be many people unable to complete the meta. Sheer persistence isn't enough.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13170
If they'd even just allow for that particular part to be shared between your toons. I managed to get 2 of 4 last night. But those last 2 completely avoid my poor holy priest, however I don't want to have to start over using a different character.
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90 Human Mage
8175
I have spent hours tonight working on this achieve. It's not fair at all to those of us who don't pvp. We don't have the gear needed to survive long enough to assault a tower in alterac, and esp those who don't know the area can't get to the towers first to click on the flag.
Pvp players can still easily get pve gear, I can't just do a couple of lfrs and get pvp gear though.

It's too much to expect people who have put in a year of work to get to this point and have to just give up because they don't pvp.

I got my guild in to try to see if we could get it using war games (we could not). No one in my guild pvp's so that was feat in itself to get them to help me check. I've told people ahead of time and been told to "!@#$" and get out of the battle ground. I've also had people deliberately mess it up for me, ie I was right at the flag to click in warsong and a priest pulled me back from it with leap of faith for the fun of it.

Sure it would be fine if people would work with you on it, but we don't all have that.

I've just wasted a year's worth of events because people are jerks.


I've had people actively dismiss and cancel effects that might help me with my orphan out.

I've been getting a steady stream of heals while attempting to take the flag. When the orphan comes out? Nope.
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100 Night Elf Druid
10420
THIS ACHIEVEMENT MAKES ME WANT TO RIP MY EYES OUT OF THEIR SOCKET.. ALTERAC VALLEY IS IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT BEING A DK/PALLY!

Or a druid but I still barely got to the tower first. No wonder alot of people who play wow turned out to be murders.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
17820
05/06/2013 07:27 AMPosted by Caissam
THIS ACHIEVEMENT MAKES ME WANT TO RIP MY EYES OUT OF THEIR SOCKET.. ALTERAC VALLEY IS IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT BEING A DK/PALLY!

Or a druid but I still barely got to the tower first. No wonder alot of people who play wow turned out to be murders.


Oh yeah, drama queen it up more.

It's a freakin achievement that will prolly take more than one year to do. It was originally hard as all getout and very few of us finished in one year. Some took 3 years or more. Did you know we had to get all those halloween masks through the drops? There were people staying awake or setting their alarms by the hour to get the Innkeeper bags. All the Easter stuff had to be found inside eggs. Nothing towards the meta could be purchased with event tokens.

You guys have had it way easier these past 2 years. So truly, suck it up and try again next year. We all did.
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90 Troll Rogue
21585
I remember those terrible days hunting for Masks....

I got up like 7 times during the night... every night... to talk to innkeepers to just get candy. I didn't sleep well during that event.

It was aweful.
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97 Blood Elf Paladin
15335
This achievement is exceedingly easy to do, but for those who can't here's a small guide.

1.Capture a flag in Eye of the Storm: The flag is in the center of the BG. Generally speaking if you want to grab the flag, sit on it. Return flag to your teams captured base. Usually that's the case during any run of this BG, but especially during Children's week.

2.Assault a tower in Alterac Valley: This isn't really even PvP related really as mostly your just fighting npc's. Just split off from the group when you get to the first tower, kill npc's at the top, and click the flag there. You don't have to capture it for this.

3.Assault a flag in Arathi Basin:Get on your fastest mount and run into the fence during the 10 sec countdown until the gate opens(Most people joke about this, but you do phase through the gate once it starts opening. You'll get a half second head start.). Run to the flag at farm as fast as possible. Make sure you have your mouse over the flag as you run up so you can click it as soon as it can be activated.

4.Return a fallen flag in Warsong Gulch: This is probably the hardest one on this list, but basically it requires you be the person that grabs the fallen flag from an enemy flag carrier.

That pretty much it. The only thing you have to remember is that your not the only one in the BG for this reason. If you don't get it the first time, try and try again.
Edited by Amorloran on 5/7/2013 11:13 AM PDT
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Every year this comes up. I'm sorry if I don't join your pity party, but here's what I think. First, the Drake and the whole achievement is optional content. If you want a drake that is PVE-only based, try farming a green proto or one of the Ulduar drakes. Second, if this is so very important for you to accomplish, why not PLAN for it? You know it's coming up. Why not spend the months leading up to it getting familiar with the BGs you have to run and practicing them as well as gearing up so it won't be as hard? Lack of planning on your part doesn't make a bad game design on Blizzard's part.
Edited by Merope on 5/7/2013 4:06 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
LoW
17215
Getting 4 friends together to farm some honor gear and learn basic strats is way easier than grabbing 9 peeps to farm valor gear to learn and execute a kill on an heroic raid boss yet both earn 10 points.

And people are complaining?
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