Subterfuge

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90 Orc Monk
6500
04/30/2013 10:46 AMPosted by Crookston


Luckily, rogues could use a really solid nerf at the moment, in terms of their damage. Give them a survivability buff in its place, and you wouldn't even see any complaining.


Subterfuge isn't really a dps positive talent. It's a survivability and control talent


It's definitely DPS positive. It allows you to control your opener and get far more out of it, which although it may not increase the overall damage, it increases the pressure of that damage exponentially. People would not complain about this talent if they could stop you from getting a cheap shot and garrotte each and every time you open from stealth, with no chance of stopping it.
90 Troll Mage
6935
Ice block. Glyph of ice block, cancel aura, blink.

Roots in place removes all poisons and makes him use his vanish.
90 Human Rogue
7830
Xyrill, I agree; it does not promote skilled game play. There are many sets of training wheels in game now that end up being "mandatory" talent choices.

Its disgusting actually.

Some solutions.

1.
Upon hostile action dealt your stealth breaks immediately, upon taking hostile action it keeps its existing function.

2.
Do not allow it to grant anything but one stealth move when hostile action is dealt meaning no more "mini dance".

3.
Delete subterfuge.
90 Undead Rogue
4445


Subterfuge isn't really a dps positive talent. It's a survivability and control talent


It's definitely DPS positive. It allows you to control your opener and get far more out of it, which although it may not increase the overall damage, it increases the pressure of that damage exponentially. People would not complain about this talent if they could stop you from getting a cheap shot and garrotte each and every time you open from stealth, with no chance of stopping it.


Subterfuge doesn't make your cheap shot better. It doesn't make your garrote better. A stun is a stun. A silence is a silence. Rogue will almost always open with one of the two and Ambush isn't significantly better than backstab or hemo in a damage per energy or energy per combo point sense.

Subterfuge is as strong as it is because it allows you to control multiple people while untargetable, which is as much a function of Cloak and Dagger as it is anything else.

And if people are complaining just because the Rogue wasn't popped from Stealth in their spam AOE, they're !@#$ bag players who don't see why the ability is too good.
Edited by Crookston on 4/30/2013 11:08 AM PDT
Ice block. Glyph of ice block, cancel aura, blink.

Roots in place removes all poisons and makes him use his vanish.


You want me to blow my 5 min CD on subterfuge? Glyph of iceblock makes you immune to spells for 3 sec after nothing melee so I don't see your point? Blink randomly then get full stun? Thanks for those wonderful tips. Btw glyph of block is garbage
Edited by Xyril on 4/30/2013 11:07 AM PDT
90 Troll Mage
6935
Glyph of ice block gives you a free nova upon breaking. Great for blink out of ice block into a deep. I run 2s with a rogue, and the one thing he hates more than anything is being rooted, plus ice blocking with cold snap negates his opening which is his solid burst area. On top of that, you make him burn his vanish, which is one of his main CD. CnD doesnt break roots so he's stuck unless he trinkets.

Its easier to play against someone when you know their class just as well as they do.

Also, cold snap allows for you to have another ice block and heals for 30% of your health. Forgot that in first post.
Edited by Thathis on 4/30/2013 11:13 AM PDT
90 Tauren Druid
6445
1.
Upon hostile action dealt your stealth breaks immediately, upon taking hostile action it keeps its existing function.


This.
90 Human Rogue
7830


You want me to blow my 5 min CD on subterfuge? Glyph of iceblock makes you immune to spells for 3 sec after nothing melee so I don't see your point? Blink randomly then get full stun? Thanks for those wonderful tips. Btw glyph of block is garbage


Not saying you are wrong, but the same argument can be made about deep freeze and frozen orb.

Just too many stupid things in game.
Glyph of ice block gives you a free nova upon breaking. Great for blink out of ice block into a deep. I run 2s with a rogue, and the one thing he hates more than anything is being rooted, plus ice blocking with cold snap negates his opening which is his solid burst area. On top of that, you make him burn his vanish, which is one of his main CD. CnD doesnt break roots so he's stuck unless he trinkets.

Its easier to play against someone when you know their class just as well as they do.

Also, cold snap allows for you to have another ice block and heals for 30% of your health. Forgot that in first post.


okay no offense but I can't take any of your advice you are 1300 with over 100 games played at a negative w/l I think I know what I'm talking about a bit more than you. Also blocking for a nova is pointless (still assuming you're talking 1v1..3v3 it would still be a horrid idea) because then he can cloak dance and blades you while you have no block
Edited by Xyril on 4/30/2013 11:26 AM PDT
90 Troll Mage
6935
Lol well excuse me for my opinion. Didn't know you were the master of mages. Take it or leave it, you asked for any advice, that's mine. You don't like it, keep dying in rogue openers. You don't see me complaining about it.
90 Orc Monk
6500
Ignorance is bliss.
Lol well excuse me for my opinion. Didn't know you were the master of mages. Take it or leave it, you asked for any advice, that's mine. You don't like it, keep dying in rogue openers. You don't see me complaining about it.


Never did I say I was the master of mages, don't get an attitude. Heres a thought though. Your advice is not good and you should change your strat against rogues in general, this post wasn't even about me dying in rogue openers it's about me not being able to peel my partners dying in rogue openers. Read please.
90 Undead Rogue
3515
Subterfuge does not need to be deleted it's actually a really good talent or rather the initial idea of the talent was good. Subterfuge just needs to be reworked a bit and i wish everyone would start giving ideas about how to rework op abilities instead of just saying that it's op your not helping anyone by just posting a QQ think up some ideas to help the ability become errr... "Less Op"
90 Undead Rogue
4445
Subterfuge does not need to be deleted it's actually a really good talent or rather the initial idea of the talent was good. Subterfuge just needs to be reworked a bit and i wish everyone would start giving ideas about how to rework op abilities instead of just saying that it's op your not helping anyone by just posting a QQ think up some ideas to help the ability become errr... "Less Op"


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8728982823?page=2#39
Make is so if you hit the rogue while he's stealthed he doesn't come out for however long subterfuge lasts, but if he does damage he comes out immediately, with his mini-shadowdance effects.

edit: crookston's idea basically, nice one broski
Edited by Busínessman on 4/30/2013 1:06 PM PDT
90 Worgen Warrior
8300
04/30/2013 10:22 AMPosted by Cleangirls
No one likes you.


i like him, he cools


Agreed, he 100-0's me so hard that I actually have got some sort of respect for him, he plays mage a lot better and a lot more aggressively than most people, in a very good way.
90 Troll Mage
15140
i'd rather see cloak and dagger get nuked from orbit
90 Human Rogue
7830
i'd rather see cloak and dagger get nuked from orbit


It also needs a change..

2 charges on seperate internal cooldown of 20 sec?
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