Subterfuge

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100 Tauren Shaman
8405
As much as I don't like the over-the-top buffs to Rogues, as long as Frost Mages remain as-is, it's a tough sell to start taking tools away from Rogues, or any melee DPS for that matter, that allow them to deal with the absurdity that is the Frost tool kit.


Subterfuge isn't really a dps positive talent. It's a survivability and control talent


It's definitely DPS positive. It allows you to control your opener and get far more out of it, which although it may not increase the overall damage, it increases the pressure of that damage exponentially. People would not complain about this talent if they could stop you from getting a cheap shot and garrotte each and every time you open from stealth, with no chance of stopping it.
no it's control. it helps our dps because it frees up combo points we'd have to otherwise use for control after breaking stealth but the talent of subterfuge is for control.

despite what you think good rogues don't use multiple openers on a player if they're trying to kill them quickly. because its a waste of energy. If you ambush without a stun and a bleed on them you do 25% damage if you do garote them, cheap them and ambush them, you now have zero energy and you've done the damage of one ambush + and eviserate ~50-100k dmg and now you have no other pressure.

good rogues will SBlades> trinket> garote> sit on the garote for another HaT tick, slice and dice, wait for full energy, then Dance>cheapshot>evis>bomb>ambush>ambush>kidney>ambush>evis>MfD>evis. and if they have no defensive CDs up and no trinket, along with no heals, you can do maybe 400k damage and end with zero energy.
10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
the stealth should break on damage, but subterfuge could act as a mini shadow dance (can still use abilities as if you were stealthed for 3s)

that would be better imo

idk, or make it break on damage but lower the cost of abilities for 3s kinda like shadow dance, so it gives you more incentive to restealth
Edited by Sanctifìed on 4/30/2013 6:14 PM PDT
90 Undead Priest
6665
04/30/2013 06:18 PMPosted by Xyril
the stealth should break on damage, but subterfuge could act as a mini shadow dance (can still use abilities as if you were stealthed for 3s)


that would be fine


04/30/2013 10:32 AMPosted by Xyril
subterfuge should work the same minus the actual stealth part. like opening with a dance or something


that would be fine


WOW !@#$ING BROKEN RECORD OVER HERE!
naw that ain't me
jee I dunno maybe a frost nova or pet nova?

scrub


oh my god are you retarded. If you cheap someone in subterfuge and are going to town for the kill what is my nova going to do if both targets aren't moving


have I ever told u how much I love u
i love u, xyril
90 Blood Elf Warlock
10985
04/30/2013 10:43 AMPosted by Ogedei
Subterfuge is a pain as a healer because its basically just free time for the rogue to DPS on me, but honestly I dont know how you fix it without removing it and nerfing rogues a ton.


Luckily, rogues could use a really solid nerf at the moment, in terms of their damage. Give them a survivability buff in its place, and you wouldn't even see any complaining.


5.3 looks to be a DPS nerf across the board, with the way PvP Power is being hit.

Subterfuge isn't really a dps positive talent. It's a survival and control talent


From playing on my rogue, Subterfuge gives you 3s more uptime on FW.
Funny that cloak and dagger was the thing to give rogues rbg viability.
xyril you're missing bracer chant and glove tinker, js

worst mage us/eu/au/etc
90 Undead Rogue
8475
I loved the part where the mage says

"YOU WANT ME TO BLOW A COOLDOWN ON SUBTERFUGE?!"

When like, a thread was just made about deep freeze and mages telling people to blow CD's or L2P.

It could stand a nerf, removal, whatever it takes.

But I still find it funny that here's another example of mage hypocrisy.
I'm sure there will be six posts quoting this about how its

"COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GUISE"
I loved the part where the mage says

"YOU WANT ME TO BLOW A COOLDOWN ON SUBTERFUGE?!"

When like, a thread was just made about deep freeze and mages telling people to blow CD's or L2P.

It could stand a nerf, removal, whatever it takes.

But I still find it funny that here's another example of mage hypocrisy.
I'm sure there will be six posts quoting this about how its

"COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GUISE"
Well considering you can stop deep damage but you cant stop the stealthed rogue..

As said above, rooting does not work because the target they are on cant move anyway.

And you cant use a cc to get the rogue off because of sub(If you are close enough to use an aoe cc you are probably sapped).

It is WAY easier to stop mage damage.

Not that arguing with you makes a difference, I've seen your posting history.
91 Undead Warlock
11045
no it's control. it helps our dps because it frees up combo points we'd have to otherwise use for control after breaking stealth but the talent of subterfuge is for control.

despite what you think good rogues don't use multiple openers on a player if they're trying to kill them quickly.


Subterfuge allows you to, quite easily, NOT GET PEELED on your opener. Yes, that is DPS positive. I realize it doesn't actually increase the amount of damage you can do, but prior to this xpac, it was pretty much standard to peel a rogue the INSTANT he opens. Can't do that anymore.

Which sort of leads into another significant point:

I loved the part where the mage says

"YOU WANT ME TO BLOW A COOLDOWN ON SUBTERFUGE?!"

When like, a thread was just made about deep freeze and mages telling people to blow CD's or L2P.

It could stand a nerf, removal, whatever it takes.

But I still find it funny that here's another example of mage hypocrisy.


They are very very different things. Why? Because the magnitudes of both mage and rogue damage are rather predictable, based on what cooldowns and self-buffs they use. You can SEE what a mage is using, and thus anticipate the incoming damage and know whether a CD is necessary. With subterfuge, you can not know. Did he pop a trinket and dance? Or did he just miss the sap and is now going for best-effort opener? The difference is massive, and requires different reactions. But you won't know which one it is until you're already at 40%.

The mage comment to which you're referring is in response to another mage that suggested instantly blocking, making the wild assumption that the rogue is actually committing some cooldowns, and 9 times out of 10, he's getting himself killed (10/10 against competent players).
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