Resto Shamans Need Some Buffs

90 Goblin Shaman
10345
This is the guy I want to play with. All specs are viable and mostly it is a user issue. Good to see I am not the only one who doesn't blame everyone and everything else for their problems.


again, to use real examples here of where the problem is:

tortos - shaman is very valuable (right now until 5.3 goes live) to handle 2 stomps at least decently with HTT on 1 and ascendance/SWG/HST on another. Inbetween those 2 stomps our toolkit consists of RT, ES, HST (when not on cd) and possibly healing rain/healing surge if you can avoid getting punted. I wouldn't count on the latter landing consistently though, and if a tank or another raid member is about to die and RT is on CD you basically sit there frustrated and hope someone else can do your job. Because SWG is so strong with Ascendance... I've found that it's just not worth using on CD for sporadic raid damage given that ascendance is very unreliable if i get interrupted at all by turtles.

Ji'Kun - on 25m especially it is exceptionally annoying to anything but tank heal due to range restrictions. I can't speak for healing platforms as I've never done it... but on the main platform we literally had to make our 25m raid learn to collapse/stack for quills because of my inability to heal the raid damage otherwise. This creates a lot of extra problems with Caw as people are either coming in to stack or leaving... as well as extra puddles. Inbetween I am left with HST (if its available) and rt/hs to handle any raid damage because my aoe is completely unreliable.

Durumu - I have to be on the blue add. Thankfully we have other healers that have more instant casts and can handle other areas. The maze consists of dropping healing rain, RT on someone low and totems. I usually try to drop healing rain (almost getting singed) and sprint ahead to the next healing rain drop (using totems/rt inbetween) and repeat. It could be worse but it could be a lot better too... and if someone gets caught at all and totems are on CD? lol yeah brez.

Primordius - just a gigantic headache anytime the spread mechanic is present. Without the spread mechanic I can hopefully place my healing rain well enough that it gets use when necessary but not always. When people have to spread, I have to either use single target spells or pray that chain heal actually jumps and doesn't just stop somewhere. I also have to rely on the tank kiting at the right speed to make use of my healing rain (hopefully).

Dark Animus - again I'm usually forced to single target snipe because the raid is spread to such a degree that both chain heal and healing rain are unreliable. In 10m using HS/HW/GHW might not seem so detrimental but to a 25m raider it is just not adequate. Most of my time is spent healing tanks, sniping heals on debuffed players and mashing my healing stream button hoping it will come off CD faster.

Iron Qon - phase 1 is actually pretty nice. Then the fight is terrible until the last phase. HTT is pretty strong for tornados (with swg/ascendance on the 2nd tornado) but once the raid has to spread and deal with the debuff.... i usually run to the far side of the room to not be in the way because my healing is useless anyway. Thankfully I make it up on the last phase where healing rain and chain heal are both useful.

Twin Consorts - I can't use my main throughput ability (healing rain) for half the fight because of the tank debuff. Also at times deal with all of the range problems above. Thankfully the fight is overall pretty easy to heal and it goes alright.

Lei Shen - I have very little burst capability to pick up the (meaningless really) healing early on. I can handle being low on the meters because of this as nobody really dies. Transitions I'd value my contributions in the middle... I can't bubble people to reduce static shock damage... but at least I can move decently to ball lightning and bring a (weak) raid wall for static shock. The last phase consists of swapping between casting healing rain / hst / rt and fighting wind in ghost wolf form to setup the next healing rain cast. When the wind stops i can usually help top people off. Overall Lei Shen isn't terrible but I'd have a lot more options as any other spec.

Again, I'm not asking for a 20% buff to healing rain. I'm asking for help in situations with high movement and/or spread. Combine the 2 (high movement and spread) and our only options are totems (CDs) and RT (6s CD). The glyph of RT is so terrible that its almost always better to just use regular RT its worth about 2 glyphed RTs anyway :p

Spread encounters are atrocious for 25m. Chain heal stops frequently because of players moving out of range or getting healed to full before you cast (breaking the chain). Yes there are more people in melee but often the mechanics don't target melee... and even if they do, its tough to only heal 1/3 the raid because of positional requirements.

This is what I would like to see fixed/improved.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11280
I love my shaman
Edited by Requital on 5/3/2013 4:24 PM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Gnome Priest
6840

Well it's all about relativity. In 25m, you bring an Rshaman first and foremost for their cooldowns. Next patch Divine Hymn, Revival, and Tranquility will all be scaled up by 240% in 25m. Healing Tide/Ag will not be, this means an Rshamans major raid cooldown will not be scaled upwards. This will push Rshamans downward in 25m, while pushing Holy Priest/Rdruid/MW upwards, something Rshaman didn't need to happen to them.

In 10m nothing is changing, only class truly getting buffed is Rdruids, but cooldowns are all remaining the same. So at this point, a fair assessment is Rshamans will fall behind in 25m by roughly 5-8% from now. We're not sure how Blizzard balances gaps, but at this point they can't buff Rshamans because of 10m since the other healers won't be scaled upwards. This leaves Rshamans in 25m with a cooldown that is utilized by gimmicks, and a cooldown that is 2.5x weaker than cooldowns of similar function.

I personally couldn't care much less, but that is the entire argument/take of how 25m shamans will for once since release of serious 10m raiding, possibly be less desirable in proportion to co-healers.


Interesting take, I didn't even think about it this way, but you're right.

I'm pretty impressed with what you and Fleurs do in HC running 10 man. Granted, my guild is certainly not in the same ballpark (sport?) as yours, but there are some fights that I despise healing in 10 man. My guild runs Tues/Wed/Thurs as 25 man, but we'll sometimes do 10 man on Sundays with a select group to work on progression. Last week we got our first Primordius kill in 10 man, and I got absolutely destroyed buy our H Pally and Disco Priest. As in, the Pally had something like 2-2.5 times the healing I had and the Priest had 1.5 times. It was depressing. This week we got him on 25 man, and I was second to our Pally, which is pretty typical (Megaera is the only fight I can ever beat him on).
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
10635
05/03/2013 01:37 PMPosted by Sensations
This leaves Rshamans in 25m with a cooldown that is utilized by gimmicks, and a cooldown that is 2.5x weaker than cooldowns of similar function.


That statement isn't true unless all the cooldowns were equal before. I don't think they were - hasn't HTT always been stronger than Tranq/DH/Rev? So yes, in 5.3 those cooldowns may be somewhat stronger than HTT, but not necessarily 2.5 times stronger. They're only 2.5 times stronger in relation to their own prior state.

Not that I entirely agree with Blizzard's reasoning on leaving HTT out of the buffs, but HTT will still be an instant cast, rather than channeled, and potentially usable more often than once every 3 minutes if it's able to do its job before it expires (which it often can). These cooldowns are not easy to analogize; ours is unquestionably the best in terms of flexibility, usability, etc. Should that not have some cost?
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
HC
15680
05/03/2013 04:47 PMPosted by Taeus
This leaves Rshamans in 25m with a cooldown that is utilized by gimmicks, and a cooldown that is 2.5x weaker than cooldowns of similar function.


That statement isn't true unless all the cooldowns were equal before. I don't think they were - hasn't HTT always been stronger than Tranq/DH/Rev? So yes, in 5.3 those cooldowns may be somewhat stronger than HTT, but not necessarily 2.5 times stronger. They're only 2.5 times stronger in relation to their own prior state.

Not that I entirely agree with Blizzard's reasoning on leaving HTT out of the buffs, but HTT will still be an instant cast, rather than channeled, and potentially usable more often than once every 3 minutes if it's able to do its job before it expires (which it often can). These cooldowns are not easy to analogize; ours is unquestionably the best in terms of flexibility, usability, etc. Should that not have some cost?


On a theoretical level, Tranquility will beat out HTT in terms of pure throughput. The difference is, is that 50% of tranquility's heal is in the form of a HoT so it's much more prone to overheal once tranq is done. If Tranquility had no HoT and the entire HoT was pushed into the direct heal, it would outheal every other raid cooldown in existence.

As for DH, HTT is about equal but a tad stronger. The difference is though, the 10% increased healing taken does matter and is nothing to scoff at(The same way people scoff at 10% damage reduction from SLT). So yes, HTT may outheal DH, DH also heals for more per tick just has less ticks(Last I checked, I may be wrong please correct me if I am).

So it's not as simple as you put it, HTT is not some godsend cooldown that outshines every other in terms of overall throughput. Honestly we're looking at no less than 2.3x stronger at best.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
9210
HTT's big advantage is set and forget, so you're still able to move and cast while it's going.

Tranq is really difficult to use on a lot of fights (H Elegon, Blade Lord, H Jin'rokh, Tortos, Dark Animus) if there's not a Shaman to Symbiosis for Spiritwalker's Grace.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
05/03/2013 04:47 PMPosted by Taeus
This leaves Rshamans in 25m with a cooldown that is utilized by gimmicks, and a cooldown that is 2.5x weaker than cooldowns of similar function.


That statement isn't true unless all the cooldowns were equal before. I don't think they were - hasn't HTT always been stronger than Tranq/DH/Rev? So yes, in 5.3 those cooldowns may be somewhat stronger than HTT, but not necessarily 2.5 times stronger. They're only 2.5 times stronger in relation to their own prior state.

Not that I entirely agree with Blizzard's reasoning on leaving HTT out of the buffs, but HTT will still be an instant cast, rather than channeled, and potentially usable more often than once every 3 minutes if it's able to do its job before it expires (which it often can). These cooldowns are not easy to analogize; ours is unquestionably the best in terms of flexibility, usability, etc. Should that not have some cost?


In actual practice, HTT and Tranq average about the same amount of healing per use. The mastery scaling of HTT potentially makes the amount it heals for vary by up to 50% (at typical Mastery levels). On a very low health raid, HTT probably pulls ahead; if the average HP is 70% or higher, Tranq probably is better.

From my experience, HTT heals for slightly more than DH or Revival. However, you have to remember that DH adds a 10% healing buff to targets it heals and Revival removes debuffs, so there are mitigating factors for healing for slightly less. Overall, yes, the buffs will make all 3 cooldowns about 240% stronger than HTT. It might be more like 200% stronger under ideal mastery conditions for HTT, but I don't think you can argue it much lower than that.

Does HTT not being channeled give it an advantage? Absolutely. But, even then, there are mitigating factors to that advantage.
1. Tranq can be cast while moving with Symbiosis-SWG
2. Revival is instant cast anyway
3. HTT does take up a water totem, preventing it from being used as the same time as HST or MTT. While it's a minor issue, it is like Tranq overwriting Innervate or DH removing the active PoM.
4. Those extra 8 seconds of casting time are not that valuable anyway, given how dependent our throughput is on short CDs (i.e HR/HST/RT). Our throughput between those cooldowns is fairly weak, and any competent player would try to put them on CD prior to channeling an ability.

While the channel time is a benefit, there is no way it is a benefit that mitigates every other ability (including Revival - which doesn't have the channel anyway) being 240% stronger than HTT.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
HTT's big advantage is set and forget, so you're still able to move and cast while it's going.

Tranq is really difficult to use on a lot of fights (H Elegon, Blade Lord, H Jin'rokh, Tortos, Dark Animus) if there's not a Shaman to Symbiosis for Spiritwalker's Grace.


You are almost definitely going to have a Shaman you can put Symbiosis on in a 25 man raid if you decide that is the best use of your Symbiosis. Considering the CD buffs are a 25 man balance issue, I don't think the inability to get SWG to use with Tranq is a relevant issue.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
9210
You are almost definitely going to have a Shaman you can put Symbiosis on in a 25 man raid if you decide that is the best use of your Symbiosis. Considering the CD buffs are a 25 man balance issue, I don't think the inability to get SWG to use with Tranq is a relevant issue.


In 10 man it can, shouldn't we take that into account when talking about HTT vs. Tranq in 10 vs. 25 man.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
05/03/2013 06:45 PMPosted by Rexoss
You are almost definitely going to have a Shaman you can put Symbiosis on in a 25 man raid if you decide that is the best use of your Symbiosis. Considering the CD buffs are a 25 man balance issue, I don't think the inability to get SWG to use with Tranq is a relevant issue.


In 10 man it can, shouldn't we take that into account when talking about HTT vs. Tranq in 10 vs. 25 man.


Nothing is changing in 10 man with regards to cooldowns. They will all be exactly the same in 5.3. The issue that people are most concerned with is that 25 man Tranq/DH/Revival are being buffed 240% but HTT is not.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
9210
Nothing is changing in 10 man with regards to cooldowns. They will all be exactly the same in 5.3. The issue that people are most concerned with is that 25 man Tranq/DH/Revival are being buffed 240% but HTT is not.


I agree, just pointing it out. I think the Revival change is okay.

Bliz is usually very conservative with scaling regen, dunno why they made MTT different.

I didn't level my Shaman after Cata, so many underused mechanics (UE, AG, TW), always such a mess for months after a new expansion, an inevitable HR buff to cover it up.

The Tranq buff is a real kludge, RDruids wanted something to bring to 25 mans that a Boomkin couldn't as well, and next patch we'll still just have Mushrooms.

Bliz needs to rework 'shrooms and stop buffing it. They can already hit for almost 1 million on live and everyone still hates them.
Edited by Rexoss on 5/3/2013 7:39 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
One of the things that I think they should look at is adding a mechanic that allows overhealing from Healing Rain to be used in some functional way. The more I look at logs, the more I am convinced that overhealing in general is what is holding Shaman back the most. When Healing Rain is 25-40% of my output, and it has overhealing on 25H progression encounters that ranges from 70% to 85%, the amount of output loss from that is just staggering. On many of these fights, if HR was at even 50% overheal, it would be enough to put me 10-15% ahead of other healers.

I think a mechanic that allows some percentage of HR overheal to be converted to a useful resource/burst healing, similar to how Rejuv overheal increases the healing done by Mushrooms would be a good idea. This would help level out just how much of an output penalty Shaman take from there not being enough outgoing damage/too many absorbs for Healing Rain to be effective. If there is low overheal, and Healing Rain is effective, you get more output. If something like this was implemented and Healing Rain is overhealing like crazy, you would have an option to use some of that lost throughput.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]