GC has no clue about the game he "designs".

90 Pandaren Shaman
10405
Why are shaman and druids doing so poorly this expansion in pve healing?
We think shaman are fine. We think druid hots get trumped a lot by absorbs, esp. paladin and Disc's. 5.3 changes should help.


That quote is from his twitter feed. So GC what do absorbs do to Riptide, earthliving hot and healing rain which is essentially a HoT. Ever heard of overheal? To go further how do absorbs make our mastery totally useless? You designed yet have no clue how our mastery works. Shaman better then me and in more progressed guilds have been talking about the problems absorbs give resto shaman. GC is avoiding the resto shaman issues like he always has. This is the same BS he has spoken every year since wrath and everytime some where down the road he quietly backtracks with no apologies to the community for the mistakes.

In wrath shaman spoke up about the issues we were having, for months GC claimed we were fine and needed no buffs. Middle of Ulduar what happens? HUGE buffs to shaman. I hope everybody remembers that.

Cata again shaman are noticing issues. Again we ask to be looked at and again GC says we're fine. Right before firelands HUGE purification buff. Remember the 25% buff!

Now we find ourselves in a familar predictiment. GC states we're fine which means huge buff inc in about 4 to 6 months. Seriously Blizz your design team needs to do a better job then this. I see your own customers who post on this forum who have more a grasp and understanding of the healing then some of you do. Try reading some of Kaels post to start maybe you can learn a thing or two about class design.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7275
Grab your torch and pitchforks!
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Monk
HC
11700
Cata again shaman are noticing issues. Again we ask to be looked at and again GC says we're fine. Right before firelands HUGE purification buff. Remember the 25% buff!


He explicitly stated that the problem wasn't so much with shamans as much as it was with fight encounters. He doesn't control that.

Developer bashing isn't going to get your point across, but stating your opinions on the state of a class is.
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
15680
He obviously knows Absorbs neutralize all healing classes who are pure throughput based. He just claims Druids are more susceptible since they are PURE HoT healers whilst Shamans not so much.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
He obviously knows Absorbs neutralize all healing classes who are pure throughput based. He just claims Druids are more susceptible since they are PURE HoT healers whilst Shamans not so much.


If you consider Healing Rain as a HoT, which it essentially is, upwards of 50% of Shaman output in 25 man raids is HoT based (HR/ELW/RT), so we are effectively very HoT dependent healers. On top of that, we have a mastery that is directly devalued by an over abundance of absorbs and that can scale our output by upwards of 50%+. When you factor in the fact that half of our output is HoT based and the impact of our Mastery, you can very easily argue that Shaman are significantly more affected by "absorb sniping" than any other healer.

We need buffs/adjustments made for that every bit as much as Druids do if not more.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105


He explicitly stated that the problem wasn't so much with shamans as much as it was with fight encounters. He doesn't control that.



That excuse is a complete cop out. If Shaman do not have the tools necessary to be competitive because of current tier fight mechanics, that is a failure of the class design team to give us appropriate tools to handle the mechanics. This is something that has been an issue for 3 expansions now, and has only ever been partially fixed by certain tiers (i.e. ICC, Dragon Soul, to a lesser extent T14) having fight mechanics that made it less of an issue. Given how often this has been a recurrent problem for 5 years now, any designer with any competence whatsoever could see that not addressing it would cause it to again be a problem the next time there was a tier with heavy spreading and movement.

You can argue that it's an encounter design problem. If that is the case, though, it is still a design failure to not restrict encounter design around the viability of class mechanics. Either they need to fix our class mechanics, or they need to change fight mechanics and disallow tier design like Ulduar/Firelands/ToT in the future.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Monk
HC
11700
05/02/2013 02:31 PMPosted by Tiberria
so we are effectively very HoT dependent healers.


Outside of absorbs, Shamans are a (Insert Healing type here) dependent healers.

That excuse is a complete cop out. If Shaman do not have the tools necessary to be competitive because of current tier fight mechanics, that is a failure of the class design team to give us appropriate tools to handle the mechanics.


Sigh.

You realize that GC has zero incentive to lie to you, and you realize that there's a completely different team for dungeons and raids.

Either they need to fix our class mechanics, or they need to change fight mechanics and disallow tier design like Ulduar/Firelands/ToT in the future.


Arguing for mechanical changes are fine, and I am mostly for them because it can get really difficult to balance class/dungeons/raids all together.
Edited by Staccato on 5/2/2013 2:50 PM PDT
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90 Human Monk
10490
Honestly, this has very little to do with encounter design and little to do with shaman healing specifically. It's a general problem with healing being too powerful across the board.

While it may not be as bad as it was in Wrath with the spamming nature of heals, healing is still an incredibly twitchy playstyle. With wrath, it was either full health, almost dead or dead. Now we really have about 4 different life levels and it's leaving little for the actual balancing act.

The only way to really resolve this is to severely reduce the amount of damage taken in encounters while at the same time drastically cutting the potency of all healing. Turn healing into a more reactive nature where cooldowns are used reactively instead of proactively. The other option would be to drastically increase the health pools of all the players while leaving the healing and damage the same, either way it's the same effect.

If you do that, what you then have is a healing system where healing done and hps become strong measures of a healer because healing moves to sustaining raid members instead of the constant blast heal to save someones life or watching a heal not land from someone going from 60% to dead in less than 1 second.

It's a big change to the design of healing and actually goes back to more of the vanilla design of healing than anything else. Some people would hate the change and some people would love it. Ultimately it would slow down healing substantially while as the same time, putting healers at the top of the list for keeping people alive moreso than even mechanics.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Outside of absorbs, Shamans are a (Insert Healing type here) dependent healers.


The distinction was made, because GC specifically singled out "HoT sniping" as the reason why he doesn't think druids are fine/are getting buffed while Shaman (who are at about the same output level as Druids) are getting shafted.

Sigh.

You realize that GC has zero incentive to lie to you, and you realize that there's a completely different team for dungeons and raids.


I don't think he is lying, I think that he doesn't understand the issue and has been handling Shaman class design in a very incompetent manner the last 2 patches. Ultimately, if a class does not have the mechanics and tools to properly deal with current encounter design, that is failure on the part of the class design team for letting that happen. Unless you are going to argue that they should limit encounter design around class design/not screwing certain specs over, this is an issue of incompetent class design and balancing.
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90 Undead Monk
3540
I know I am only lvl 70 but I have healed since the inception of this game.

I have an opinion on this subject.

A healer is not greedy he/she is selfless. If healers have OP anything fgriggin YAY!

I know it may cause others to view you as less desirable. If that is the case then find some players that understand this simple fact...every class has a role.

It has been my experience that a good player will be choosing who he/she plays with and spending more time declining invitations then looking for them.
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26 Draenei Shaman
200
So i came back this past month after a years absence and honestly, I think the return will only be for a month because honestly, while the content seems fantastic so far I can't support the people in charge.

I'm an engineer, i design systems, algorithms and then have to get them working in the field. If i had a system in place that kept reliably failing under the same conditions...well i wouldn't tell the customer that their plant is the problem...no my job becomes making our systems work in their environment, anything less is a complete failure of design on my part! Or in this case the game designers.

It's not just resto shaman, hell...ele is in a similar boat, and druids, and I'm sure several other specs...but it's not coincidence that you look and its generally the same few classes and specs regularly getting bandaid buffs...the surest sign of a failure of design. And there have been multiple expansion breaks where they could have fixed the underlying mechanical issues, and they have chosen not to. I won't put on the tin foil and speculate why it is because the reason doesn't matter. The design is a failure and its patently obvious to anyone who looks.
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1 Gnome Warlock
0
At some point don't we have to start looking at the issue of "Shaman as mana battery?"

Tiberria is 12 ilvls equipped higher than me, but has 5k less intellect. 9kish more spirit.

That is a HUGE throughput loss (but a bigger raid utility gain). Rshamans are already outperforming Druids in 25s even with this huge intellect gap (10s another story). At least until the mystifying changes in 5.3 go live.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
10405
Sigh.You realize that GC has zero incentive to lie to you, and you realize that there's a completely different team for dungeons and raids.


if he was lying I would have said it, I said he doesn't know what he is doing and doesn't understand the class. The evidence is there to support that claim it's been proven in every xpac since wrath. He states shaman are fine followed by a couple months later a huge buff to shaman. I think the problem is they can't figure out how to fix resto shaman in pve without making us ungodly in pvp. Our mastery is great for PvP but for PvE its just not doing the job. If they can't marry the pve shaman and pvp shaman then they need to say so and stop feeding us the standard resto shaman line....Shaman are fine.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
At some point don't we have to start looking at the issue of "Shaman as mana battery?"

Tiberria is 12 ilvls equipped higher than me, but has 5k less intellect. 9kish more spirit.

That is a HUGE throughput loss (but a bigger raid utility gain). Rshamans are already outperforming Druids in 25s even with this huge intellect gap (10s another story). At least until the mystifying changes in 5.3 go live.


TBH, Mana Tide isn't that needed. We're all swimming in Spirit at this point. Our Shaman only has about 15k Spirit, but it doesn't seem to really be an issue.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15400
So i came back this past month after a years absence and honestly, I think the return will only be for a month because honestly, while the content seems fantastic so far I can't support the people in charge.

I'm an engineer, i design systems, algorithms and then have to get them working in the field. If i had a system in place that kept reliably failing under the same conditions...well i wouldn't tell the customer that their plant is the problem...no my job becomes making our systems work in their environment, anything less is a complete failure of design on my part! Or in this case the game designers.

It's not just resto shaman, hell...ele is in a similar boat, and druids, and I'm sure several other specs...but it's not coincidence that you look and its generally the same few classes and specs regularly getting bandaid buffs...the surest sign of a failure of design. And there have been multiple expansion breaks where they could have fixed the underlying mechanical issues, and they have chosen not to. I won't put on the tin foil and speculate why it is because the reason doesn't matter. The design is a failure and its patently obvious to anyone who looks.


Well said. Ghostfailer and his math challenged crew are doing a terrible job. For proof, just look at the top ten ranks. Example, for Horridon, all 10 spots are priests. For Jin'rok 9/10 spots are paladins. I mean really? Is that fun for the druid or shaman who, due to balance failures, can't even compete??
Why not design and balance the game so that each class has an equal chance to compete??
So Actiblizz, either buy the current team some calculators, or start over.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
I mean really? Is that fun for the druid or shaman who, due to balance failures, can't even compete??


Not sure what you're saying here. The resto shaman I heal with is amazing and we 2 heal a lot of fights in 10 man. There are obvious flaws but there are problems with every healer. I could write you a whole list. Either way I two healed TOT with a resto druid too. Absolutely no complaints and again resto druids have problems too but still great healers.

The buff to mushrooms plus the T152P will be incredible synergy. All of this is my opinion but the healers I healed with this tier and the one before absolutely competed. If anyone got sat it was because of mechanics or one healer being better attuned for certain fights and even then it was never immediate or final. You can heal any fight this tier with any mixed healer comp without a doubt. That has never been a question and I will add personally I would never heal TOT with a disc priest. Too much problems in my opinion and the synergy isn't as great. It certainly can be done but its just much easier to do so with a mw monk, druid or shaman or holy priest.

There is a lot of balance that needs to be done but its not completely hopeless either. Far from it. Has the developers done strange things in the past or in the eyes of the player completely neglected some issues? That can be easily said. Nonetheless it's always better to go the constructive route and informative in my opinion. I always felt druids were on a strange boat to them being almost purely a HOT healing class. Healing Touch packs a punch though due to mastery.

Things will be different in 5.3. Holy Paladin mastery is taking quite a hit, scaling and number wise and we're going back to more of our old traditional role. Disc Priests will still be practically the same but they're very hard to balance. MW monks did not need to be touched so they stayed the same. Very good buff for resto druids and it can be argued its still clunky which is valid point.

The only healer that seems to be left completely out of the boat are resto shamans but we'll have to see what happens before 5.3 hits or after.
Edited by Marathel on 5/2/2013 6:51 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
I have fun.


Best line I have read this month.
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