GC has no clue about the game he "designs".

90 Pandaren Priest
14930
05/04/2013 10:38 AMPosted by Yuenwooping
I think the frustration here is that the vast majority of the people that play this game stay in normal modes. And the answers that even Tiriel is giving are "non absorb healers are fine as long as you're pushing heroic content while undergeared".


Someone else (Sensations?) proposed having healing spells work differently in different levels of content, since we know they can make spells work differently between 10 and 25 man content. That's honestly the only way I can see it working. The damage is too intense, at least in 25 heroic content, to really tone healers down that much. I'm already getting grey hairs from some of the burst damage mechanics.

Edited to Add: Something else that I'm curious about, tho, is why Mistweavers are able to stay solvent - and even strong - even when overhealing/stacking absorbs.
Edited by Tiriel on 5/4/2013 12:13 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Monk
8295
I'm not sure on that part. Any time you can blow a revival, that helps a ton. A lot of times I'll lag way behind in a fight until the first big cooldown is needed, and revival will either bump me ahead of the pally, or put me back in the running. They can also either quad uplift as a mini cooldown with chi brew, or triple uplift with ascension and expel harm available. In 3-4 seconds, these can serve as a mini-revival in 10 man. Other than those 2 things allowing me huge catch-up periods after a burst, im not sure what has helped them over R Druids or R Shaman.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I'm not sure on that part. Any time you can blow a revival, that helps a ton. A lot of times I'll lag way behind in a fight until the first big cooldown is needed, and revival will either bump me ahead of the pally, or put me back in the running. They can also either quad uplift as a mini cooldown with chi brew, or triple uplift with ascension and expel harm available. In 3-4 seconds, these can serve as a mini-revival in 10 man. Other than those 2 things allowing me huge catch-up periods after a burst, im not sure what has helped them over R Druids or R Shaman.


The "lag" is true of any pure healer. Absorbs simply snipe most of the damage when its light. If you look at, say...Iron Qon...in the first 2-3 minutes, the absorb healers are king. You have to get several minutes into the encounter before pure healers start overtaking them.
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90 Night Elf Monk
8295
Yeah, thats what I've noticed as well. And again, I don't like to meter !@#$% as a healer. I know that there are several times in a fight where im 20k HPS behind the pally that I will jesus-heal someone at very low health, or pop an uplift chain that stabilizes us, and those moments are the difference between wipes and kills much more so than just average raw throughput, but the game is much more fun when you feel like you're contributing the whole fight, rather than just waiting for stuff to go wrong. Shaman mastery has the same issue. "You're good when someone messes up, and thats important!" is very true, but also kind of boring...
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Yeah, thats what I've noticed as well. And again, I don't like to meter !@#$% as a healer. I know that there are several times in a fight where im 20k HPS behind the pally that I will jesus-heal someone at very low health, or pop an uplift chain that stabilizes us, and those moments are the difference between wipes and kills much more so than just average raw throughput, but the game is much more fun when you feel like you're contributing the whole fight, rather than just waiting for stuff to go wrong. Shaman mastery has the same issue. "You're good when someone messes up, and thats important!" is very true, but also kind of boring...


Actually, I think the biggest problem with Shaman Mastery is that we have too much mana. :-\ Sad but true. We are able to top people off too easily, but the encounters also demand that you do, so it's one of those catch-22's.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
05/04/2013 01:14 PMPosted by Tiriel
I'm not sure on that part. Any time you can blow a revival, that helps a ton. A lot of times I'll lag way behind in a fight until the first big cooldown is needed, and revival will either bump me ahead of the pally, or put me back in the running. They can also either quad uplift as a mini cooldown with chi brew, or triple uplift with ascension and expel harm available. In 3-4 seconds, these can serve as a mini-revival in 10 man. Other than those 2 things allowing me huge catch-up periods after a burst, im not sure what has helped them over R Druids or R Shaman.


The "lag" is true of any pure healer. Absorbs simply snipe most of the damage when its light. If you look at, say...Iron Qon...in the first 2-3 minutes, the absorb healers are king. You have to get several minutes into the encounter before pure healers start overtaking them.


I don't think Iron Qon is a great example, because the boss phase of that fight is one of the few times this tier where there is what I would consider remotely heavy sustained AoE raid damage on a stacked raid. It's probably the only time that I see Healing Rain overheal drop to even sub-60%.

Overall, the raid damage this tier is really exceedingly light. Most cases where raid damage even gets anywhere near what could be considered high (i.e Megaera Rampage, Day phase of Twins, etc), the damage is for short bursts and can be trivialized through a cooldown rotation. Everywhere else, Healing Rain averages ~80% overhealing, and my total overhealing can hit 75% on some fights easily.

Absorbs dominate because raid damage is tuned too low this tier. I think they just need to increase incidental raid damage significantly, not to the point where mechanics will RNG one shot people if they aren't topped 100% of the time, but to the point where HoTs and passive healing isn't rendered useless by the excessive prevalence of absorbs.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Absorbs dominate because raid damage is tuned too low this tier. I think they just need to increase incidental raid damage significantly, not to the point where mechanics will RNG one shot people if they aren't topped 100% of the time, but to the point where HoTs and passive healing isn't rendered useless by the excessive prevalence of absorbs.


I am not seeing HoTs and passive healing rendered "useless" by absorbs, even with 2 pallies and 2 dpriests in the raid. At the very least, Mistweavers and Druids aren't having any issue keeping up. The problem for shaman is that the more intense fights seem to also be either a) spread fights or b) movement fights, both of which generally make things harder for Shaman. I personally wouldn't look at Megeara as a fight to showcase Shaman because you can overheal the fight by quite a bit - and many guilds do.

Quite frankly I don't see the issue with HR having a high overheal. It's going to have a high overheal because people stand in it when there's no damage. My Holy Word: Sanctuary has an average 80% overheal, but that is to be expected because - again - people stand in ground effects when they're completely full and there is no damage going out.
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90 Night Elf Druid
5475
Actually, I think the biggest problem with Shaman Mastery is that we have too much mana. :-\ Sad but true. We are able to top people off too easily, but the encounters also demand that you do, so it's one of those catch-22's.


Everyone needs more health and less mana. Then spamming heals on people who don't really need them could actually leave you without enough mana to do your job, while leaving them at 2/3 while a hot ticks on them/smart heals roll in wouldn't endanger their life (except in high damage phases or if a big special is coming).

Result: sniping leads to wiping, so people learn to stop doing it so much. Shaman mastery and shaman/druid "over time" heals (including HR/Efflo, which aren't technically HOTs but act like them in some ways) could reach their full potential, and healers that are pushed down by overheal would have some more of it become effective heal.

Get rid of the health bar yo-yoing and make healing what it has been intended to be since Cata but never really was -- a game of picking the right spell for the job and not wasting resources when you don't need to.

Blood would also benefit a bit, in situations where they can be 2-3 shotted right now where another tank would only be wounded. Having too little TTL undermines their mechanics.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12960
You have absorbs? Those are pretty neat.
You have top of the line throughput? Gratz.
I have fun.

Implying you can't have absorbs and be #1 and have fun.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
You have absorbs? Those are pretty neat.
You have top of the line throughput? Gratz.
I have fun.

Implying you can't have absorbs and be #1 and have fun.


I can't possibly have more fun than you, Dezie. I don't have your terribly fetching hat.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13165
05/04/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Tiriel
Absorbs dominate because raid damage is tuned too low this tier. I think they just need to increase incidental raid damage significantly, not to the point where mechanics will RNG one shot people if they aren't topped 100% of the time, but to the point where HoTs and passive healing isn't rendered useless by the excessive prevalence of absorbs.


Quite frankly I don't see the issue with HR having a high overheal. It's going to have a high overheal because people stand in it when there's no damage. My Holy Word: Sanctuary has an average 80% overheal, but that is to be expected because - again - people stand in ground effects when they're completely full and there is no damage going out.


I'm guessing it's because of HRain being so crucial to the Shaman kit. Their spell selection vs their effective contribution to healing is so imbalanced that you can literally guess how "good" Shaman are/are not going to be for a fight based on how HRain will fare, and that's only become more prevalent as time as gone on. Sanc doesn't hold the same weight for Holy Priests, yea? Every other spec's "imbalanced" spell is far less situational, and probably less imbalanced to boot.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I'm guessing it's because of HRain being so crucial to the Shaman kit. Their spell selection vs their effective contribution to healing is so imbalanced that you can literally guess how "good" Shaman are/are not going to be for a fight based on how HRain will fare, and that's only become more prevalent as time as gone on. Sanc doesn't hold the same weight for Holy Priests, yea? Every other spec's "imbalanced" spell is far less situational, and probably less imbalanced to boot.


No, Sanc doesn't (which is why I'd rather not drop it at all >.<). And yes, that is the issue with HR. Pretty much everything is tied to it, and that is not a place any class wants to be. Wildgrowth anyone? >.<
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