These changes make no sense.....

90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
"Anyone willing to tank will always be asked to tank" is an incredibly myopic view of class balance. It just self-evidently isn't true - most groups have long-term tanks they are already settled into and primarily need to replace DPS and Healers (not to mention there is much more of an opportunity for DPS/Healers to need to be replaced since there are more of them in a raid).
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
And I agree with you Mahourai. The few % buff they would be receiving for this would be fine if it's offset by a change preventing the Festerblight playstyle that's been more and more adopted as the expansion has gone on and is stronger then standard Unholy. Standard Unholy would see a slight buff while Festerblight Unholy would see a loss, basically equalizing the two.
Edited by Bullettime on 5/2/2013 2:54 PM PDT
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Because you only argue with anecdotes from the PoV of an LFR raider instead of actually researching classes, viewing discussion, and analyzing data.


You made a QQ post about changes that MAY NEVER even make it to the PTR, but you have analyzed all the data, researched all the classes and are simply better than me because I'm an "LFR Raider".

I can see the bigger picture. I understand game design. I've designed games (tabletop not computer since I'm not a programmer) so I am interested in game balance and the bigger picture of things.

As I posed to another poster who tried to invalidate my arguments based on my Armory listings I'd suggest you show me a screen cap of your resume with the words "Lead Game Designer" and the name of a reputable company or else you are just the same as me-- a player of a game who enjoys posting about game design as a hobby on a forum.

Extreme class bias? What extreme class bias am I showing in this thread? The fact that I pointed out that there was a nerf along with the DK buff when originally you claimed that both Festering and Scourge Stike when it was one buffed and the other nerfed?

By pointing out that this is a change that's not even to the PTR yet, may never happen there much less live and even if it does it is a tiny part of a much bigger picture?

By doing that I am showing "extreme class bias?" Please, don't use an assault against me the person to pick apart my arguments, that is in itself a logical fallacy.
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90 Orc Death Knight
13765
The DK change is a change to combat Festerblight becoming the only way to play Unholy. It has zero to do with PVP so get your panties unbunched.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
The DK change is a change to combat Festerblight becoming the only way to play Unholy. It has zero to do with PVP so get your panties unbunched.


We understand that. The problem is the DK change is a buff to the Festerblight playstyle, as well as being a larger buff to the "intended" DK playstyle. That is not the way Unholy balance needs to trend.
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90 Troll Hunter
11450
The DK change is a change to combat Festerblight becoming the only way to play Unholy. It has zero to do with PVP so get your panties unbunched.

Guess I just don't know how it's going to change any sort of playstyle if the change just adjusts damage on abilities you are still going to use.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
05/02/2013 02:58 PMPosted by Meleti
The DK change is a change to combat Festerblight becoming the only way to play Unholy. It has zero to do with PVP so get your panties unbunched.

Guess I just don't know how it's going to change any sort of playstyle if the change just adjusts damage on abilities you are still going to use.


Well, I'm unsure how much it's improving the "traditional" Unholy playstyle. But buffing both of them and having the traditional style buffed to the moon is a hilariously bad way to balance DK, even if it ends up restoring the traditional style to prominence. Festerblight probably needs to just stop existing and Unholy's DPS needs to be moving in the opposite direction.
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Guess I just don't know how it's going to change any sort of playstyle if the change just adjusts damage on abilities you are still going to use.


By making the ability that refreshes the durations deal less damage and therefore be less attractive compared to other abilities? That seems fairly obvious to me. .

From EJ:
"Festerblight

Festerblight is a play-style for unholy which differs from the generally accepted one primarily with diseases. Most unholy players apply diseases via outbreak or unholy blight every minute or two, and use festering strike to bridge the 30 second duration with the cooldowns of those two abilities. However, when playing festerblight, you'll keep your most powerful diseases rolling the whole fight by using festering strike more often. Diseases scale with AP, and you'll have the most AP when your cooldowns, trinkets, runeforge, and pot overlap. In some cases, this is worth the loss from the lack of scourge strikes which are caused by the additional festering strikes taking up your runes. "

SO by nerfing Festering Strike while buffing Scourge Strike you reduce the value of refreshing diseases early/ too often (in a somewhat abusive way) by overusing Festering Strike in place of Scourge Strikes thereby eliminating the playstyle and returning Unholy to its intended playstyle thereby simplifying their ability to then balance that spec.

Its a change akin to removing Scorch weaving to restore Blizzards rotation instead of a different one players found.
Edited by Alordis on 5/2/2013 3:37 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
05/02/2013 02:58 PMPosted by Meleti
The DK change is a change to combat Festerblight becoming the only way to play Unholy. It has zero to do with PVP so get your panties unbunched.

Guess I just don't know how it's going to change any sort of playstyle if the change just adjusts damage on abilities you are still going to use.


Festerblight is a DPS playstyle adopted by Unholy, primarily on single target encounters, that yields slightly higher DPS than standard Unholy play. It uses Festering Strike as a primary strike to wedge the gap between Outbreaks and Unholy Blights (about a 30 second window) that apply diseases during trinket procs. In this cycle, Festering Strike is used a fair bit more so that it can roll two massively modified dots via trinkets over an entire fight instead of being used standard.

A nerf to Festering Strike and a boost to Scourge Strike accomplishes killing festerblight, however it also serves as a boost to standard Unholy which didn't need the buffs to begin with. That's the issue. Standard Unholy was already really strong, festerblight was just even stronger. This change kills festerblight but at the same time, boosts standard Unholy to where festerblight was.

It's DPS neutral for those who were previously using this playstyle, but a buff to people who were playing standard Unholy which was still stronger than most specs in the game.
Edited by Bullettime on 5/2/2013 3:41 PM PDT
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It's DPS neutral for those who were previously using this playstyle, but a buff to people who were playing standard Unholy which was still stronger than most specs in the game.


But it removes what could be considered an abusive playstyle, opens it up for a simpler nerf if Unholy remains too strong, and since a lot of other classes are getting straight buffs probably leaves Unholy near the top of the charts but not OP. . .

You talk as though Unholy is going to become more dominant based on it, but at worst it will stay where it is.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
4295
Quit complaining.

Unholy suffers from a few scaling problems so they won't be at the top forever. Other classes/specs with superior scaling will surpass them.
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100 Troll Rogue
21800
It's upper pack to close to top on any measurement that isn't top 100, which is an unreliable and laughable measurement to use for balance.

If it makes you feel any better the combat change is basically trivial, something on the order of .1%. The sub buff by contrast is something on the order of a 6% dps buff.
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100 Troll Shaman
17020
Its a datamined change therefore I dont believe it one bit until its in the patch notes.

Datamined changes have been wrong in the past
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90 Orc Death Knight
13765
No, GC confirmed it. And really, it's a needed change if they don't want Festerblight to become mandatory (Hint, it currently is on live for a lot of fights to min/max.)
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
well this is odd

they nerf an unintended playstyle, but buff the traditional one.

if I was a scorch weaving arcane mage, i'd be furious right now.
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100 Troll Shaman
17020
well this is odd

they nerf an unintended playstyle, but buff the traditional one.

if I was a scorch weaving arcane mage, i'd be furious right now.


I was an arcane mage and I dont really care. I don't get emotional about games 99% of the time.
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well this is odd

they nerf an unintended playstyle, but buff the traditional one.

if I was a scorch weaving arcane mage, i'd be furious right now.


I was an arcane mage and I dont really care. I don't get emotional about games 99% of the time.


Arcane needed to be moved from 6 stacks to 4 for us to have any chance at being able to play the spec "the right way" but the bomb buff and the fact that you can just re-spam NT casts (even when there's not another target to DoT) to fish for Missiles procs and still virtually never clear stacks with Barrage suggests that Blizzard is going to eventually decide that this too is not an acceptable play style and have to drastically alter the spec yet again.

They really have proven that they have no clue what to do with Arcane this expansion, and I don't expect that by the end of MoP it will look much like it did at the beginning or now for that matter.
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
well this is odd

they nerf an unintended playstyle, but buff the traditional one.

if I was a scorch weaving arcane mage, i'd be furious right now.


I was an arcane mage and I dont really care. I don't get emotional about games 99% of the time.


me either, but it does seem like a double standard, which is kinda annoying.

why not buff arcane blast after the scorch nerf? seems a logical buff to the intended playstyle. instead, they just got rid of scorch weaving with no compensation.

scorch weaving mages lose dps as a result, and dk's get a buff to offset the damage loss from a nerf to their "unintended playstyle". strange :/
Edited by Sanctifìed on 5/2/2013 8:08 PM PDT
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why not buff arcane blast after the scorch nerf? seems a logical buff to the intended playstyle. instead, they just got rid of scorch weaving with no compensation.


Its not as simple as that though. . . they drastically changed the number and effect of the stacks. They changed the mana costs, scaling coefficients, and base damage of every arcane spell, then they rushed it onto the PTR then pushed the patch out despite the fact that they had done all those basically untested changes.

Then because of how Arcane's mastery works when they did a relatively simple buff for the other two specs it created really messed up situations with high mastery no mana spending NT spamming. . .

I can't get mad at them not making the same type of mistakes and ruining a DK spec just because. . .
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
i think they really need to take the beta process more seriously. and redesigning a class mid-xpac should never happen. I saw this last expansion as a paladin, when ret was absolute trash at the start of cata, cause the mastery was junk. then they fixed it, and it was playable (but far from great).

they need to simulate how specs perform at theoretical endgame levels, dont just test stuff based on the first tier level of gear. this is part of the reason affliction/arcane got nerfed a lot, or why other specs are getting big damage buffs to fix their issues.

we said over and over that rets problem for example was sustained damage. sword of light used to be 25%, and even then we werent exactly top dps. they nerfed it to 10%. then buffed it to 15%. and in 5.3, it's going to 30%.

frankly, it's ridiculous. they need to get a handle on class mechanics and scaling BEFORE they release the final product. im not saying it's easy to achieve perfect balance, but we shouldnt see radical redesigns in the middle of an xpac. sword of light going from 10-30%, the changes to mage bombs, the changes to RSK/stance damage for monks, the redesign of arms warriors, and others come to mind.

all I can say is...pay close attention to feedback in beta testing...cause you know what, people might be on to something! (this is where I get to say "I told you so" about the sword of light beta nerfs being a big mistake)
Edited by Sanctifìed on 5/2/2013 8:29 PM PDT
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