These changes make no sense.....

90 Worgen Druid
14435
They are buffing the classes below UH to bring them up closer to where it is instead of nerfing the top classes.


Lol, except almost EVERYONE is below Unholy, and they sure as hell aren't buffing everyone.

The obvious answer is they don't think Unholy needs a straight nerf.


Which once again brings us to the WHOLE point of this thread, why do they think Unholy doesn't need a nerf, when they most certainly do???
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Which once again brings us to the WHOLE point of this thread, why do they think Unholy doesn't need a nerf, when they most certainly do???


Why do they "most certainly do???"

A. Rogue, three Warlock Specs, Fire Mage, Spriest and Balance Druid's aren't running that far behind UH (if not ahead).

Feral Cats are getting a buff, Hunters are getting a Buff, WW Monk are getting a buff, Retibution Paladins are getting a buff, Enhancement Shamans are getting a buff. . . so with all these buffs you STILL want UH Nerfed?

Why?
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100 Troll Hunter
19415
05/03/2013 01:55 PMPosted by Alordis
Which once again brings us to the WHOLE point of this thread, why do they think Unholy doesn't need a nerf, when they most certainly do???


Why do they "most certainly do???"

A. Rogue, three Warlock Specs, Fire Mage, Spriest and Balance Druid's aren't running that far behind UH (if not ahead).

Feral Cats are getting a buff, Hunters are getting a Buff, WW Monk are getting a buff, Retibution Paladins are getting a buff, Enhancement Shamans are getting a buff. . . so with all these buffs you STILL want UH Nerfed?

Why?

Because assuming the specs you listed are the "intended" place for DPS to be, UH is ahead of them, and a slight nerf is the direction they should go, instead of a buff.

Where any of those specs (other than Rogues, which is sounds like is more of a burst adjustment, which allowed them to place the ability where the originally wanted it for PVE anyways, and is a relatively minor gain) receiving DPS buffs? (Asking because, I haven't been keeping track...)

Edit: Alternatively, they could kill of Festerblight (if that is the intent) by allowing the DOTs to auto-update and not "snap-shot" buffs/procs/trinks; which would have (I believe) a minimal impact on the "intended" UH play style.

Bullet's point is that standard UH does not need a buff compared to the rest of the specs; and if Festerblight is an issue, and not standard UH, then kill off Festerblight without buffing standard UH.
Edited by Verdash on 5/3/2013 2:05 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
05/03/2013 01:55 PMPosted by Alordis
Which once again brings us to the WHOLE point of this thread, why do they think Unholy doesn't need a nerf, when they most certainly do???


Why do they "most certainly do???"

A. Rogue, three Warlock Specs, Fire Mage, Spriest and Balance Druid's aren't running that far behind UH (if not ahead).

Feral Cats are getting a buff, Hunters are getting a Buff, WW Monk are getting a buff, Retibution Paladins are getting a buff, Enhancement Shamans are getting a buff. . . so with all these buffs you STILL want UH Nerfed?

Why?


I think the better question we need to ask here is "Why do we expect a LFR hero to understand how balancing classes works?"
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100 Pandaren Monk
9385
I think the better question we need to ask here is "Why do we expect a LFR hero to understand how balancing classes works?"


But he's right. If the low specs are being buffed, why do the high specs need to be nerfed in addition?
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
But he's right. If the low specs are being buffed, why do the high specs need to be nerfed in addition?


You're responding under the assumption that every single DPS spec is being buffed in 5.3 which is not the case.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Unholy's problem (such as it is) is that its single-target damage is heavily boosted by Festerblight, and its multi-target damage is heavily boosted by, yannow, the ability to spread 30s DoTs that do a third of the DK's overall single-target damage to everyone within 15 yards.

On single-target fights, the DK uses Festerblight to gain way more benefit from strength, crit, and mastery procs or on-use abilities than normal. On multi-target fights, the DK just spreads diseases and runs around /loling.

The FeS nerf is a distinct hit to single-target performance, while leaving AoE untouched. The Scourge Strike buff compensates for that.

Either they're not done (patch is not finished until patch goes live) and they're going to lower DKs elsewhere, or they feel that DKs are about where people should be and the other specs are going to get brought up.

Given the buffs to AoE and a lot of other "middle of the pack" specs, I suspect it's the latter, but I wouldn't rule out a nerf that doesn't affect the DK rotation - say, to the bonus strength granted to unholy.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
I haven't done any looking at dk's this tier, mind explaining what the hell 'festerblight' is?

Spending Death Runes on Festering Strike instead of Scourge Strike to "roll" a disease that's been applied with all of your procs and on-use abilities active.

For example, a DK can nearly double her attack power with a pair of proc strength trinkets, unholy might, and a potion. Since Festering Strike EXTENDS diseases instead of REFRESHING them, by using Festering Strike instead of Scourge Strike the DK can extend that heavily-buffed diseases throughout an entire fight.
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You're responding under the assumption that every single DPS spec is being buffed in 5.3 which is not the case.


I already listed 7 that are getting buffs. You can add two rogue specs that the OP QQed about along with UH into that, which brings it up to 9 specs getting buffs.

Take out the three warlock specs, three mage specs, A Rogue which are already in the same ballpark, you're left with only Ele Shamans, Warriors, Spriests and Balance not getting any buffs and not already with or ahead of UH. . .

4/23 isn't bad, especially since Spriests and Balance and Fury are not that far behind, and since Ele has such a defined role where it excels . . . I guess Arms Warriors can complain. Anyone else complaining about a largely DPS neutral change to alter the rotation of UH DKs (which still has not even hit the PTR, much less live, and which may be combined with something else) seems pretty silly.
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100 Gnome Rogue
19810
I think the better question we need to ask here is "Why do we expect a LFR hero to understand how balancing classes works?"


I'm not sure how being a "LFR hero" disqualifies him from being correct about class balance issues. Now if he was trying to give advise on heroic ToT fights then yeah assuming he didn't have another toon decked out in heroics.

Demeaning someone instead of countering their arguments is a rather sad but typical response.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
6075
05/03/2013 04:30 PMPosted by Krinu
ability to spread 30s DoTs that do a third of the DK's overall single-target damage to everyone


I remember when fire could do this with combustion.
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100 Draenei Death Knight
19375
I think the better question we need to ask here is "Why do we expect a LFR hero to understand how balancing classes works?"


He's correct with everything he stated. Being geared in LFR does not necessarily mean you do not understand the workings of your class.... it can mean you're not fortunate enough for a raid group... so quit your bickering.

I believe the balance change to Unholy was primarily targeted towards the festerblight spec. To the individuals calling out rankings; it would be difficult determining how many of those parses were in fact Fester-blighters, from standard unholy. Hence, calling out ranks would be highly irrelevant at this point.

A Festerblighter actually uses Festering Strike at an extraordinary rate, my above friend Krinu stated: it's to keep your most powerful diseases rolling throughout the entire fight. All death runes are forwarded into festering strike.

PS: My advice would be to remain calm and wait, since this is PTR; bi-polar balance fixes have been known at times.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
The DK changes is to discourage a particular type of game-play. It is actually a nerf to be perfectly honest.
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100 Draenei Death Knight
19375
The DK changes is to discourage a particular type of game-play. It is actually a nerf to be perfectly honest.


Yep... like DW Unholy at the start of Cata... boy did Blizzard kill that quickly.
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90 Orc Death Knight
16140
This is a net buff for even festerblight, at least for the players who know when to SS over FeS by watching trinket procs. Our sustained damage will remain about the same but our "burst" potential will be higher. Burst being switching to SS spam during trinket procs to maximize SS damage while maintaining diseases with FeS during low or no proc periods.

I'm thinking a nerf may follow this change, possibly with Unholy Might.
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I'm thinking a nerf may follow this change, possibly with Unholy Might.


Or Ebon Plaguebringer? Seems like dropping that from 60% to 50% might be the kind of small wiggle nerf they would consider. . . more percentage points to play with at least compared to 15% on Might. . .
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90 Orc Death Knight
8580
But they are nerfing one Unholy spec strike and buffing the other. . . ? Its not a straight buff.

And Combat rogues aren't the one that's at top its Assassination, so buffing a Combat only and Subtlety only abilities aren't going to affect that?


Combat is right on the heels of Assassination already. Combat just lacks when looking at top 100 parses. Any other measurement has the two close.

And Scourge Strike is used substantially more than Festering Strike in PvE. They nerfed the attack they use a handful of times a minute by 12.5% and buffed the strike that gets basically spammed by 22%, resulting in a buff. Have you ever played an Unholy?


So do we get to make up numbers now.. How about we balance I after I pick a few parses that show frost dk's dead last..

Ya, that's what I thought.
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90 Orc Death Knight
16140
They do have to be careful with any changes they make involving our diseases or a flat AP nerf (Unholy Might) since it affects our AoE greatly, and could easily cause Unholy to fall under DW Frost in many circumstances.
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90 Human Rogue
17275
why does the class one posts on have direct bearing on the subject matter? Not all of us post with class bias and can make posts discussing game design and class balance


Because we can see right through you.

And in order to form a better argument, you might want to actually be arguing what you MEAN -- and not this meaningless BS.

You are clearly upset by Hunter's place in the DPS chain. So talk about that. You know, instead of griping about fixes you obviously have no clue about.
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