Druid SotF/Swiftmend QoL change

90 Night Elf Druid
14850
Resto druids need changes, 5.3 is nigh, here is my argument.

During t14 I was using SotF and glyph'd wild growth with t14 4set bonus. Swiftmend/wildgrowth rotation felt smooth and fluid, and I felt reasonably strong as resto druid. However since loosing t14 set bonus SotF seems clunky and nonviable, I feel forced to spec into incarnation. Without the ability to align to cooldowns of both swiftmend and wild growth, SotF becomes very very clunky.

Imo the best and easiest way to make SotF more viable is to allow players the choice to reduced the cd on swiftmend via glyph selection, either that or flat out reduce the cd on swiftmend. This could be achieved either by changing glyph of healing touch to incorporate regrowth or adding a glyph of swiftmend.

Changing glyph of healing touch has potential balance issues in pvp, therefore adding a glyph of swiftmend would be preferable. The cd reduction could be offset with a 'trade off' to swiftmend healing throughput.

Glyph of Swiftmend:
Your swiftmend's heals for 50% less on its direct heal, but is cooldown is reduced by 30%.


Resto druids predominant issue in pve is high overhealing, due to absorbs/hots getting sniped, "druid hots get trumped a lot by absorbs, esp. paladin and Disc's" (ghostcrawler).

SotF allows for burst aoe smart healing, and has minimal over healing as wild growth doesn't get sniped as easily as other druid hots. On the other hand, incarnation's effectiveness diminishes with group size as it has a high skill cap and can easily overheal.

SotF is preferable to incarnation in 25 man raiding (at least it was during t14 with 4 set). Therefore making SotF more accessible would help pve druids healing problems, especially in 25 man which is where most of the druid healing concerns are coming from.

Summary
- Make SotF more viable via reduced cd on swiftmend.
- Swiftmend cd reduction through glyph's would not be a huge buff to resto druids.
- Such a change would help solve core druid pve healing issues

Would such a change cause SotF to become too powerful in its talent tier? (a lot of druids still spec'd incarnation in 10 man even with t14 set bonus).

Would appreciate some feedback from some druids that raid 25 man.
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100 Night Elf Druid
16745
I finally switched over to the T15 4pc because, well, I just don't care anymore. I can't compete with pallies or priests so I have accepted my fate and can only hope that Ghostfailer and his math challenged crew are replaced at some point. The bandaid buffs to rdruids are proof enough of an obvious design failure. Basically if you're not an absorb class, you lose.
If you need more proof just check out the top ranks and healing parses.
In regards to the T14 4pc bonus, it was awesome for SOTF. With T15 4pc I just alternate between WG and Rejuv after SM.

Would such a change cause SotF to become too powerful in its talent tier? (a lot of druids still spec'd incarnation in 10 man even with t14 set bonus).


You're suggestion is a good idea, but I doubt anything would help at this point as the "absorb" mechanic is too powerful right now. The incoming tranq buff will make us more desirable to a 25 man raid, but the radius increase to Eff and shrooms is just a bandaid. Hots will still be sniped. The shrooms throughput buff is nice, if it stays in, but still situational and clunky as hell.
We're just in a bad place right now, especially for 25 man raids.
All the good devs are working on Titan :(
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100 Night Elf Druid
19485
I switched and tried T15 on Lei Shen last night. I didn't love it.

I still have T14 and have my gear setup so I can swap between T14 and T15 without having to change anything - the downside is I don't have my legendary gem in T14 :(

But I agree, SM without T14 feels too slow, and the fact it isn't lining up with WG makes it feel clunky.

I'd support the glyph, after all I rarely use SM for the "heal" part - mostly for the healing circle/ SoTF proc.
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90 Night Elf Druid
12410
I agree.. They should make the t14 bonus baseline. Druids have enough clunky mechanics. C'mon druids upvote this so it gets attention!
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100 Tauren Druid
9550
No.

Not going to happen. I'm not saying it's a bad idea or I wouldn't like it.

But it's flat out never going to happen unless Incarnation AND Treants get buffed through the roof.
See, blizzard does this thing, only with resto druids it would appear, they don't want us massively favoring one talent. So they try to make them all equally crap. And the result is still generally the same junk; Everyone is rolling SotF. ToL just doesn't cut it, and FoN is LOLbad. Even on PTR, FoN treants swiftmend ticks are healing for 900. That's not a typo. Nine-Hundred. Healing Numbers like that are utterly pathetic. In BC content. lol 3 expansions later.
Edited by Tonydanza on 5/3/2013 7:03 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
9210
Un-glyph WG and alternate SotF/Non-SotF WGs.

It lines up pretty good, and I never liked the WG glyph anway.
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90 Night Elf Druid
14850
Un-glyph WG and alternate SotF/Non-SotF WGs.

It lines up pretty good, and I never liked the WG glyph anway.


No self respecting resto druid who raids 25 man is going to skip taking glyph of wild growth.

Therefore if this is indeed blizzards design intent, it fails in 25 man, resulting in clunky playstyle.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9210
No self respecting resto druid who raids 25 man is going to skip taking glyph of wild growth.

Therefore if this is indeed blizzards design intent, it fails in 25 man, resulting in clunky playstyle.


If I remember the maths from when it was redesigned, the glyph is always an HPS loss even with perfect use, which you still won't get in 25 man.

Add that you'll be delaying WG even more to line it up with SM, looks like a huge HPS loss.

Edit: Assuming you don't have T14 set bonus still.
Edited by Rexoss on 5/4/2013 6:14 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Druid
9550


If I remember the maths from when it was redesigned, the glyph is always an HPS loss even with perfect use, which you still won't get in 25 man.


That is quite untrue and I've no idea what you're talking about since it's redesign it's always been a net throughput gain with some merits/arguments can be made based on particular fights for it's strength in 10man. But in 25man, you're just flat out bad if you don't take this glyph and if you don't think it's a flat out gain.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9210
That is quite untrue and I've no idea what you're talking about since it's redesign it's always been a net throughput gain with some merits/arguments can be made based on particular fights for it's strength in 10man. But in 25man, you're just flat out bad if you don't take this glyph and if you don't think it's a flat out gain.


I didn't think I was saying something controversial.

Am I the only one who remembers that this glyph was absolutely loathed in 4.3, often replaced with glyph of barkskin/innervate, even in 25?

The glyph by itself is easy math, after being changed it's a 7% HPS loss even if it didn't overheal more, in exchange for higher HPM and an extra GCD.

Like I said I don't have maths for 5.2 so I googled http://r4healingtouch.wordpress.com/2013/04/07/a-fresh-look-at-soul-of-the-forest-5-2-napkin-math-edition/

Thoughts?
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100 Troll Druid
19205
I like the t15 set better because it's controlled, and also a massive HPS buff to our main spell. But I also think locking SotF to just a single spell really promotes a boring playstyle, which is why I don't always use it for a WG to begin with.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
I like the t15 set better because it's controlled, and also a massive HPS buff to our main spell. But I also think locking SotF to just a single spell really promotes a boring playstyle, which is why I don't always use it for a WG to begin with.

Are you unable to grab your hands onto heroic t14 2pc?
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100 Tauren Druid
9550
05/04/2013 07:24 PMPosted by Rexoss
That is quite untrue and I've no idea what you're talking about since it's redesign it's always been a net throughput gain with some merits/arguments can be made based on particular fights for it's strength in 10man. But in 25man, you're just flat out bad if you don't take this glyph and if you don't think it's a flat out gain.


I didn't think I was saying something controversial.

Am I the only one who remembers that this glyph was absolutely loathed in 4.3, often replaced with glyph of barkskin/innervate, even in 25?

The glyph by itself is easy math, after being changed it's a 7% HPS loss even if it didn't overheal more, in exchange for higher HPM and an extra GCD.

Like I said I don't have maths for 5.2 so I googled http://r4healingtouch.wordpress.com/2013/04/07/a-fresh-look-at-soul-of-the-forest-5-2-napkin-math-edition/

Thoughts?


Perfect math does not = better when it comes to healing that is largely situational. The fact is, overall hitting 6 targets is most likely to be more total healing over the course of most fights.

Those charts are based on math on what is essentially a target dummy. It's pounded out on CD, with no account for overhealing or incoming burst damage 1 1/2 seconds after you casted that WG. (Not sure if you noticed, but if theres not raid members who have suffered damage, you cannot pre-hot WG as it will go to pets first...)

Casting WG on CD just does not happen unless you have absolute unquestionable total and complete full time raid damage. You go as close to CD as possible..This is where that theory starts to fall apart. The more time it is off CD and not used the further and further behind your non-glyphed falls. It takes very little time for them to become equal.

The bottom line; The glyph has more fights it's useful than not.
Edited by Tonydanza on 5/4/2013 9:05 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
9210
Still don't buy it.

05/04/2013 09:02 PMPosted by Tonydanza
Perfect math does not = better when it comes to healing that is largely situational. The fact is, overall hitting 6 targets is most likely to be more total healing over the course of most fights.


Alternating hits 5, and if you want, chooses 5 again. How is this not smarter and more flexible?

Those charts are based on math on what is essentially a target dummy. It's pounded out on CD, with no account for overhealing or incoming burst damage 1 1/2 seconds after you casted that WG. (Not sure if you noticed, but if theres not raid members who have suffered damage, you cannot pre-hot WG as it will go to pets first...)


Both these rotations take place within a 15 second window, pounding out more rotations doesn't change HPS. All you're saying is that build is almost as good during light damage, or burst that somehow lines up with a 15 second rotation more so than an 8-8.

Pauses of a few seconds will effect both rotations similarly. For example, with the glyph it helps if you can sit on the SotF buff for a few secs and hurts otherwise.

Casting WG on CD just does not happen unless you have absolute unquestionable total and complete full time raid damage. You go as close to CD as possible..This is where that theory starts to fall apart. The more time it is off CD and not used the further and further behind your non-glyphed falls. It takes very little time for them to become equal.

The bottom line; The glyph has more fights it's useful than not.


Both these rotations take place within a 15 second window, one isn't more "full time" than the other.

When the damage gets high and you need it off CD, you'll have a 20% gimped WG.
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100 Troll Druid
19205
05/04/2013 08:48 PMPosted by Fleurs
I like the t15 set better because it's controlled, and also a massive HPS buff to our main spell. But I also think locking SotF to just a single spell really promotes a boring playstyle, which is why I don't always use it for a WG to begin with.

Are you unable to grab your hands onto heroic t14 2pc?


I have gloves, pants, and shoulders. My gloves and shoulders are double upgraded too.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650


Are you unable to grab your hands onto heroic t14 2pc?


I have gloves, pants, and shoulders. My gloves and shoulders are double upgraded too.

I don't see the gain from going for the 4pc until higher gear levels, simply because of the levels of int/mastery we can get to. Care to explain your thought process for doing otherwise?
Edited by Fleurs on 5/5/2013 12:56 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
11580
Am I the only one who remembers that this glyph was absolutely loathed in 4.3, often replaced with glyph of barkskin/innervate, even in 25?


I recall it being an HPS loss in 10 man, but not sure about 25 man. I thought I read somewhere that the HPS loss is no longer the case (different expansion, different numbers). Unfortunately, I can't find that thread.

IMO, the added target should be baseline and that glyph tossed.... and ffs, take PETS off the targeting for it.
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59 Draenei Priest
0
05/02/2013 06:52 PMPosted by Krippsy
Resto druids predominant issue in pve is high overhealing, due to absorbs/hots getting sniped, "druid hots get trumped a lot by absorbs, esp. paladin and Disc's" (ghostcrawler).


I agree that power absorb healing has been a big disadvantage for Resto Druid healing though this entire expansion in terms of looking powerful on healing meters. And in a way healing meters are a measure of contribution to the raid. Healing meters aren't the only measure of raid contribution but what they do show is that absorbs are always more beneficial than direct healing (that's obvious though...preventing damage from being taken is better than taking damage and then having to heal it).

I don't think your suggestion is a really good fix to resto druids in 25M.

1. Buffing swiftmend cd is only helpful on some fights. In a movement fight, resto druids do run into the same problem as resto shaman. People don't necessarily stand in the healing circle when damage is going out for the druid to benefit from the healing done.

2. In my experience, Incarnation is more powerful than SotF in 25M almost always and especially on progression encounters. An extra tick/faster ticking WG is less likely to be sniped but I don't think that necessarily translates to much higher healing done numbers.

I think there are much simpler solutions to druid healing numbers that would benefit them in more situations and allow more versatility than what you have suggested.

1. Double the number of rejuv ticks but half the healing of each in the same duration of healing.

For example rejuv currently heals for X every Y seconds for Z total seconds. It could now heal for X/2 every Y/2 Seconds for Z total seconds.

This will likely result in higher Rejuv Healing Done numbers and allow resto druids to contribute much more significantly to total healing done numbers. This also results in more haste break points for the rejuv spell and we would probably (I haven't done the math) be able to aim to pick up an additional tick of rejuv.

2. Increase the Healing Done by Rejuv. This is not as good of an alternative as the first imo but it could be used to make rejuv contribute more to total healing. Maybe Rejuv could be front loaded like WG to do more healing in the initial ticks and then less healing for each successive tick.

Realistically the problem just comes down to making it possible for druids to heal more sizable chunks of the damage that actually does occur (that absorbs do not heal). This can either come from buffing major druid spells (Rejuv) or nerfing the direct healing of other healers (especially those using absorbs...bigger atonement nerfs would be welcome).

Fundamentally my suggestions above don't address the situation where absorbs soak up so much damage that there is no damage for resto druids (or any healer relying on direct healing) to heal which can be the case once content begins to be out geared. The only way to remedy that is to give druids some type of an absorb as well or to nerf absorb healing significantly to allow actual healing to occur.
Edited by Lypiaa on 5/5/2013 7:53 AM PDT
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91 Night Elf Druid
9335
I've had a lot of trouble with this exact same thing. I figured I wouldn't switch over until I had 4p t15 with 2 or 3 of the pieces being 535. Well, the amount of healing done is now starting to get really boosted due to new gear (since my pants are still 483 ilvl) and my t15 pants are 535.

I really hate going back to 15s swiftmend.... really hate it. I've tried losing the glyph and trying to swap on/off, but in actual playing this doesn't line up well at all. It's clunky and annoying, and yeah it promotes incarnation a lot, which is kind of a half-!@# CD that isn't really worth considering an actual "raid CD."

I don't really know the solution here since I'm pretty confident they'll never make swiftmend 12s (or 11s would be nice) a baseline for druids. The talent choices in that tier are difficult to decide on.

It's also important for people to stop assuming SotF is only meant for wild growth. This talent goes far beyond that one spell and that needs to be noticed. There are many times you can set up a powerful lifebloom or a powerful rejuve so that a particular individual with a ticking debuff or a tank with huge damage is taking a super hot. SotF can also trigger a "super tranq" if you think the slow ticking tranq is going to allow someone to die (since it's such a garbage raid CD compared to basically everyone else's).

SotF is really the most FUN(devs get that? :) ) talent to play with.

I'll give blizzard a tier or two to fix it and just play something else. For now, since I activated late and really didn't have an option, I'm forced into druid until Ra-Den is down. If blizz ever fixes things later on, I'll have the druid ready to go.

We can only say so much. So many people will sit here and disagree on things, so what does blizzard really have to go off of? We have tons of people saying druids are in trouble, but we also have tons of people saying druids are fine. I personally believe the people that say druids are fine are just not able to comprehend the reasons why they're not. Many players do more HPS than the person they're healing next to and just go "well if it's played right, druids are good too!" while completely ignoring the fact that if the other player played right, they'd make the druid look so awful.

What angers me the most is watching well progressed players sit here and try to make an argument for druids being fine. They've gone through the heroic content and watched their crappy toolset. They've been able to see other tools from other classes make theirs look like the most ridiculous pieces of garbage. They even have players from the best 25m guild in the world making huge posts why druids stink, and they explain it THOROUGHLY as to why with SOLID reasoning.

Yet here they are, thinking they somehow have a case against all of that. I just don't understand really.....
Edited by Gamex on 5/5/2013 8:54 AM PDT
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100 Troll Druid
19205


I have gloves, pants, and shoulders. My gloves and shoulders are double upgraded too.

I don't see the gain from going for the 4pc until higher gear levels, simply because of the levels of int/mastery we can get to. Care to explain your thought process for doing otherwise?


Mana isn't that much of an issue for me right now, especially with the meta gem. They could come in handy if I feel tight on mana though.
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