Backstab..........

90 Human Rogue
7830
Just buff this, its damage is crap.
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dont use it unless youve got a rupture up, and find weakness is a plus as well. other than that, hemo for CP's and keep the buffs rolling untill dance.
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90 Human Rogue
7830
Even with FW,,,, still crap; and just a big disappointment. Hell they could triple the damage and no one would notice.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
You use Backstab, you better !@#$ing like it.
I swear, you guys. If you are behind the opponent and you're using Hemo or Shuriken Toss. I'll find you irl and I'll flick your ear.

On the PTR with full Tyrannical:
Backstab: (10807 * 2.75) + 1053 = 30772.25 / 35 = 879.2 DPE
Hemo: (10807 * 2.03) = 21938.21 / 30 = 731.273
Shuriken Toss: 24039 / 40 = 600.975
(On Live, ST has 1200 DPE at greater than 10 yards but, that's getting nerfed in 5.3)

Then just to show everything:
Combat damage - 12991-18259 (15625)
Sinister Strike: (15625 * 1.45) = 22656.25 / 40 = 566.40625

Assassination damage - MH:10635-13675(12155) OH:4254-5470(4862)
Mutilate (12155+4862) * 2 + 1116 = 35150 / 55 = 639.09
Dispatch: (12155 * 4.6) + 3220 = 59133 / 30 = 1971.1
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90 Human Rogue
7830
Does that Hemorrhage number include the DoT that tic's for 1100?

Edit: cause those are Target dummy numbers, I know cause I have recount and know exactly how hard my average backstab non crit is.. And that's very very close.

Its just so damn lack luster........ Makes me cry a little on the inside each time I use backstab, hear the nice backstab sound and then /sigh as the measly damage pops up.
Edited by Harland on 5/3/2013 3:42 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
It does not.
Including that: 21938.21 * 1.5 = 32907.315 / 30 = 1096.91
But, that only works for the first Hemo which is why I didn't include it. If the DoT is already up, it's not worth using again unless you can't get behind the target.
-
These numbers are straight from the tooltip. They'll hit for that much when not effected by armor, resilience, or buffs/debuffs. But, those effects have the same impact on all abilities.
Also, I was just trying to show that Backstab was our best real generator (Dispatch is more of an execute). So, it's very unlikely it alone will get buffed.
Edited by Knocrogue on 5/3/2013 3:52 AM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
12645
I'll find you irl and I'll flick your ear.

Ahahahahaha, omg.
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Bottom line, backstab doesn't feel good.

It needs a fix, either remove the positional requirements, make it cost less energy, or increase the damage. They removed the positional requirements on mutilate, i don't know why backstab was left with this punishing design with no reward.

Combo points are another punishing mechanic with no reward. Rogues should be top of every tank and spank fight with the current design, but they aren't.. They consistently get low dps on single target fights. If you want other classes to be competitive in single target fights, then you should fix the broken combo point system.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
Well, there are only two ways I can see Backstab getting buffed.
1) Our DPS falls behind across the board and they buff Mutilate, Sinister Strike, and Backstab. (If it's only Subtlety behind, they'll just buff Sanguinary Vein, unfortunately...)
2) They move away from passive damage. SnD gets nerfed significantly or is removed from Subtlety.
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90 Night Elf Monk
12860
SnD gets nerfed significantly or is removed from Subtlety.


then sub would be down a finisher, and we've already had the discussion about how sub can't really afford to lose a finisher.

Unless they take away HaT somehow. maybe to place it on the final tier, but it doesn't really belong in combat or mut unless it's watered down a bit.

Without HaT, sub's CP gen drops and it can lose/change finishers.

and I swear to god they better not buff SV. It's already a rather poor and disliked mechanic.
Edited by Sichel on 5/3/2013 5:12 AM PDT
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Wait so backstab hits for like 30k on target dummies? Remember when it used to crit over 50% of the time for 30k? So its damage hasn't really gone up proportionally has it?
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90 Night Elf Monk
12860
Wait so backstab hits for like 30k on target dummies? Remember when it used to crit over 50% of the time for 30k? So its damage hasn't really gone up proportionally has it?


no, I was getting 100k backstabs in cata. 30k minimum.
Edited by Sichel on 5/3/2013 5:35 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
then sub would be down a finisher, and we've already had the discussion about how sub can't really afford to lose a finisher.

Unless they take away HaT somehow. maybe to place it on the final tier, but it doesn't really belong in combat or mut unless it's watered down a bit.

Without HaT, sub's CP gen drops and it can lose/change finishers.

and I swear to god they better not buff SV. It's already a rather poor and disliked mechanic.


Well, they can just nerf it a bunch. Make it only increase speed by like 5% or put it at 10% and take it off Executioner. No matter what, even if it was 1%, you'd still use it because of Energetic Recovery.
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90 Night Elf Monk
12860
Well, they can just nerf it a bunch. Make it only increase speed by like 5% or put it at 10% and take it off Executioner. No matter what, even if it was 1%, you'd still use it because of Energetic Recovery.


or they could take away the mastery scaling on slice and dice.

because that was a dumb addition. just leave it at a static 40%. or better yet, leave it at 20% like it used to be.
Edited by Sichel on 5/3/2013 5:42 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
I'm not sure if just removing it from Executioner would be enough. 40% is still a lot. :o
But, I'm not totally sure how much it needs to be nerfed to get Backstab to say, ---

Actually, how hard do you guys think Backstab should hit for (with NO buffs on a target with NO debuffs and 0% armor/resil)? Remember, it only costs 35e.
That number is at 30,000 atm. What should it be?
Edited by Knocrogue on 5/3/2013 6:29 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
Oh my. I totally forgot. Should I be including Sanguinary Vein in those calculations? I know I said no debuffs/etc. But, that is a rather constant thing.

Backstab and Hemo are actually 20% more superior to Sinister Strike and Mutilate.
That would be...
Backstab: (10807 * 2.75) + 1053 = 30772.25 * 1.2 = 36926.7 / 35 = 1055.04
Hemo: (10807 * 2.03) = 21938.21 * 1.2 = 26325.85 / 30 = 877.53

o.o
Edited by Knocrogue on 5/3/2013 6:41 AM PDT
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Oh my. I totally forgot. Should I be including Sanguinary Vein in those calculations?

Backstab and Hemo are actually 20% more superior to Sinister Strike and Mutilate.


Yeah but then again energy has a lower value for combat.

And I'd say it should probably hit for around 50 to 60k with no armor or resil. Or bring back crit talents and make it crit for 70k to 80k.
Edited by Redfang on 5/3/2013 6:41 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Monk
12860
40% is still a lot. :o


last I checked executioner brought it to like 56%, but perhaps that number has changed and I'm foggy as to whether that was at 85 or 90. a 16% nerf (actually closer to a 30% nerf) might be enough to buff backstab by a nice amount.

I'm not sure if just removing it from Executioner would be enough. 40% is still a lot. :o
But, I'm not totally sure how much it needs to be nerfed to get Backstab to say, ---

Actually, how hard do you guys think Backstab should hit for (with NO buffs on a target with NO debuffs and 0% armor/resil)? Remember, it only costs 35e.
That number is at 30,000 atm. What should it be?


at current crit chances, I'd go 50-60k (closer to 50k). a bit higher than blackout kick with no buffs/debuffs, not counting the DoT, RSK debuff, tiger palm and whatnot. (ilvl 490)

with higher crit chances, I'd say 40-50k on a dummy. still marginally higher than a blackout kick, but I also have rising sun kick (which is really closer to eviscerate anyway)
Edited by Sichel on 5/3/2013 6:55 AM PDT
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