If Absorbs are really a problem...

90 Undead Rogue
1390
I honestly haven't raided since TBC, but back in my day priest shields and the like weren't causing other healers to become useless.

If a single target absorb with a debuff attached to it that prevents spamming on the same target is really an issue, sounds like raids are too easy nowadays and blizzard needs to make them A LOT more intensive.

Bring back sunwell healing intensity.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
After 3.3 they seemed to want to get rid of the mindset that your tank could be killed in 1.5 seconds from full health which is what led to the spam fest of ICC.

Now they are stuck between the triage healing/raid wide super damage model which to me seems like it would be hard to balance. And due to this it has pushed the game towards cooldown craft.

Personally i liked the idea of a more triage based healing style as it would bring a more meaningful spell selection/mana consumption aspect of the game in but others don't like it. Just my personal opinion here.

And on the sunwell note they will never, ever go back to that. There were so few people ever to set foot in there that it is not healthy for the longevity of the game.
Edited by Taelaus on 5/3/2013 7:31 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14305
05/03/2013 07:18 AMPosted by Arota
If a single target absorb with a debuff attached to it that prevents spamming on the same target is really an issue, sounds like raids are too easy nowadays and blizzard needs to make them A LOT more intensive.


There are a few more absorbs than just PW:S now. Disc priests also have Divine Aegis and Spirit Shell, and holy paladins have Illuminated Healing.

You're right that a lot of the complaints against absorbs come from easy content, though. LFR doesn't really challenge healers the way organized raiding does, so absorbs can pre-snipe a lot of the required healing. That paints a pretty distorted picture of healer balance, and unfortunately a lot of folks only see that.

Not that it's perfect in normal raiding, but it's not nearly as skewed when there's enough damage to punch through all the bubbles and still hurt.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
I haven't raided in a long time, but I'm still going to make uninformed comments and suggestions that would wreck everything.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I honestly haven't raided since TBC, but back in my day priest shields and the like weren't causing other healers to become useless.

If a single target absorb with a debuff attached to it that prevents spamming on the same target is really an issue, sounds like raids are too easy nowadays and blizzard needs to make them A LOT more intensive.

Bring back sunwell healing intensity.


In serious content, absorbs are not rendering any healers useless. You literally cannot suppress other healers - even as Disc - on any fight with serious damage (which would be...um...all of them...on heroic). It's been said before, but I'll say it again - Disc is balanced around those absorbs, and the balance is tuned for heroic modes, not normal mode encounters. Disc looks exceptional in normal mode encounters because there's far less damage going out. Everyone realizes, I hope, that there's a finite amount of damage that goes out every fight. In normal encounters, Disc (and Paladins, to an extent) soaks up that damage first, leaving only the dregs for other healers. But in heroic modes, while Disc soaks up damage initially, there's so MUCH damage going around that there is plenty for other healers to heal. The problem is, many of the people complaining have not yet seen the more intensive heroic fights...and never will.
Edited by Tiriel on 5/3/2013 10:21 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
7140
Being one that may never set foot in heroic.. Do you think its really good game design when one or two healing specs outshine all others on normal mode but not so much on heroic modes?

To me I think, or hope that the 5.3 changes will make things a little more balanced. Yet I don't think that any one class should shine SO brightly in one version of difficulty that others feel useless or are physically doing little to nothing.

There should be and is a rush in raiding for all classes, however, this rush is probably most apparent to healers and tanks. Yet if one or several healers are typically doing very little, and I'm not talking about meters.. I'm talking about actually healing and pressing buttons... then that's where the OP part comes in and seems legit to me because I'd be bored out of my mind.

Edit: Oh and LFR is typically better for healing because of the lack of logic and knowledge of the encounters in it. Even if the dmg is small and forgiving, 24 other retards equals out to some decent healing and I dont see hpally and disc priests do as well in LFR as a result..
Edited by Ohdin on 5/3/2013 10:58 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10215
I can see merit in what some healers are saying about normal modes. I agree they are a snooze fest, especially when overgearing/healing an encounter. I'd argue, as Tiriel did, that since healers (and dps and tanks for that matter) are balanced around the higher end(Heroics) combined with the fact damage is pretty low/easily scooped up by smart heals/absorbs, that trying to quantify a healers strength is skewed, even there.


Edit: Oh and LFR is typically better for healing because of the lack of logic and knowledge of the encounters in it. Even if the dmg is small and forgiving, 24 other retards equals out to some decent healing and I dont see hpally and disc priests do as well in LFR as a result..


Yeah.. no. LFR does not even come close in comparision to incoming damage for normal, let alone heroic modes. Add in there are usually 6 healers on encounters that could be solo healed by a competant/decently geared healer, then yeah I can see why you think there is nothing to do...
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90 Human Paladin
12970
Edit: Oh and LFR is typically better for healing because of the lack of logic and knowledge of the encounters in it. Even if the dmg is small and forgiving, 24 other retards equals out to some decent healing and I dont see hpally and disc priests do as well in LFR as a result..


From what I've experienced in Normal Throne of Thunder thus far, this couldn't be farther from the truth.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Being one that may never set foot in heroic.. Do you think its really good game design when one or two healing specs outshine all others on normal mode but not so much on heroic modes?

To me I think, or hope that the 5.3 changes will make things a little more balanced. Yet I don't think that any one class should shine SO brightly in one version of difficulty that others feel useless or are physically doing little to nothing.

There should be and is a rush in raiding for all classes, however, this rush is probably most apparent to healers and tanks. Yet if one or several healers are typically doing very little, and I'm not talking about meters.. I'm talking about actually healing and pressing buttons... then that's where the OP part comes in and seems legit to me because I'd be bored out of my mind.

Edit: Oh and LFR is typically better for healing because of the lack of logic and knowledge of the encounters in it. Even if the dmg is small and forgiving, 24 other retards equals out to some decent healing and I dont see hpally and disc priests do as well in LFR as a result..


How exactly do you propose balancing healers around weaker encounters and still having them viable for the hardest encounters in the game?

I really am not concerned about the changes in 5.3. Don't get me wrong - I do think that Druids are weak on Burst, and Shaman are weak on spread (and, har har, Holy Priests are weak on Mana lolololol). I'm somewhat concerned that Shaman are going to be left behind without HTT getting changed to match Tranq and DH. However, it's already beneficial to structure many fight strats around Shaman strengths (because they are so strong they make the healing much, MUCH easier for the other healers). It's just that a lot of raid leaders either a) can't think outside of the box or b) don't understand that what Shaman are strong in (that would be anything they can use HR on), they are VERY strong in.

I would also echo Glory's statement about LFR. It's really not good to judge anything on.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
and, har har, Holy Priests are weak on Mana lolololol

lol.

If I had Disc's mana, I would be a god. In fact, I may well reach deity status by the end of this tier.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12820
How exactly do you propose balancing healers around weaker encounters and still having them viable for the hardest encounters in the game?


Simple, lower absorb contributions but raise healing contributions on absorb capable healing specs.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105

In serious content, absorbs are not rendering any healers useless. You literally cannot suppress other healers - even as Disc - on any fight with serious damage (which would be...um...all of them...on heroic). .


I am going to strongly disagree with this. Useless is too strong of a word, but even in cutting edge 25H progression, absorbs are definitely heavily suppressing the throughput of other healers. This is definitely something that is a class balance problem, even at the highest level of raiding.

-Healing Rain regularly has overheal of 75%+ on heroic progression, including Heroic Lei Shen. Heroic Iron Qon is the only fight this tier where I have seen it drop to even the 60% overheal range. Given that it accounts for 25-45% of Shaman output, absorb mechanics are absolutely causing output suppression.
-I am regularly seeing overheal in our raids from things like Rejuv, Riptide, Renewing Mists, Lifebloom, etc in the 50-60% range, even on healing intensive heroic progression fights. A lot of that overhealing is directly attributable to absorbs.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I am going to strongly disagree with this. Useless is too strong of a word, but even in cutting edge 25H progression, absorbs are definitely heavily suppressing the throughput of other healers. This is definitely something that is a class balance problem, even at the highest level of raiding.

-Healing Rain regularly has overheal of 75%+ on heroic progression, including Heroic Lei Shen. Heroic Iron Qon is the only fight this tier where I have seen it drop to even the 60% overheal range. Given that it accounts for 25-45% of Shaman output, absorb mechanics are absolutely causing output suppression.
-I am regularly seeing overheal in our raids from things like Rejuv, Riptide, Renewing Mists, Lifebloom, etc in the 50-60% range, even on healing intensive heroic progression fights. A lot of that overhealing is directly attributable to absorbs.


And yet it's still the top part of your heals, right? I dunno, man. When we structure our strats around Healing Rain, our Shaman has no problem stomping all over the rest of us with her cute Pandaren paws. For that matter, I have no problem stomping all over Disc Priests as Holy.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
21370
I honestly haven't raided since TBC, but back in my day priest shields and the like weren't causing other healers to become useless.

If a single target absorb with a debuff attached to it that prevents spamming on the same target is really an issue, sounds like raids are too easy nowadays and blizzard needs to make them A LOT more intensive.

Bring back sunwell healing intensity.


The good old days of having to use different ranks of spells.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7140
[quote]
How exactly do you propose balancing healers around weaker encounters and still having them viable for the hardest encounters in the game?


I have no proposition on how to balance them better. I don't think it is as simple as nerfing a disc or hpally's bubble. I have no credits to bear me any real merit on game design of this magnitude.

To be honest, this discussion in itself isn't as easy as most people make it sound. I heal with a shammy and holy priest for our third healer when needed. We've downed 5/12 10m Normal.. so I know that it's plenty possible to clear through ToT without the bubble healer.

I can't say with all honesty that a bubble healer wouldn't drastically improve our progression. In fact I bet mot people who read this will wonder why the holy priest doesn't just go disc. Well that right there is the problem to me. Not that disc priests or holy pallies are OP, just that they're THAT good.

The first step would be to figure out how blizzard plans to go about their boss encounters.

The second step is to resconstruct the healing classes in such a way that we all work well together, yet, no other class shadows others too much. This was the problem in wotlk, priests didn't like it when we could rejuv spam.. so they fixxed us.

That's as much as I can say.. I don't know what exact things to change.
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, 24 other retards equals out to some decent healing and I dont see hpally and disc priests do as well in LFR as a result..


Come do LFR with me :)...healing LFR is a joke and is the main reason you see so much healer class QQ....I can go in on either of my pallies and roflstomp the meters due to tons of small AOE heals and small bubbles or a shadow geared disc priest and atone my way through the content, but on my Druid there just isn't enough dmg to even bother casting.

With the fact that most LFR ques are waiting on heals, I wish they would just drop the required number to 5 and add another DPS slot
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51 Human Warlock
0
Being one that may never set foot in heroic.. Do you think its really good game design when one or two healing specs outshine all others on normal mode but not so much on heroic modes?


On world of logs, the normal mode ranks show people who have farmed all of normal as well as some heroic and are basically doing content they overgear. Of course the absorbs are doing all the healing. Balancing healing around content that people overgear and little damage is going out is pretty dumb.

Monks, Priests and Paladins are strong healers. Overnerfing Paladin and disc priest absorbs is going to do nothing but make monks more powerful. Druids and Shaman aren't suddenly going to be more viable. Monks will still be able to instantly heal much of the raid through uplift while shaman and druids are casting/waiting for hots.
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90 Pandaren Priest
10765
And on the sunwell note they will never, ever go back to that. There were so few people ever to set foot in there that it is not healthy for the longevity of the game


they went back to that with heroic raids in LK.... Heroic LK was no joke now the buff that was given yes that was a joke and was really sad.

Besides few people went into sunwell because LK was already announced many guilds stopped raiding and were leveling alts for LK. The same thing happened for halion it was just filler content.

* side note.

Part of me wants to see absorbs gone for a week of raiding so healers who complain about them can learn to appreciate absorbs instead of the endless QQ.
Edited by Loratabb on 5/4/2013 9:20 AM PDT
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90 Goblin Priest
12055
Bring back sunwell healing intensity.


I did sunwell as current content on a resto shaman. And it was not as difficult as ToT is. As a shaman you spammed chain heal, and a priest you spammed CoH and PoM. The others, idk. There was some moving, but not like it is now. I loved TBC, but being honest, the content now requires much more attentiveness/skill from all players, not just spamming two spells standing still half the time.
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