If Absorbs are really a problem...

90 Pandaren Priest
14930
At least Sanctuary is shinny. I like to pretend the Jin'rokh water pools are what my Healing Rain looks like. 8(


We used to have a running joke that Blizzard makes ground effects pretty in the order of how useless they are.

Thus, Sanctuary (completely useless), Efflo (useful depending on the situation), and Healing Rain (ridiculously useful, but looks like crap).
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8755
We used to have a running joke that Blizzard makes ground effects pretty in the order of how useless they are.

Thus, Sanctuary (completely useless), Efflo (useful depending on the situation), and Healing Rain (ridiculously useful, but looks like crap).

But...disc bubble of sparklies!
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
But...disc bubble of sparklies!


But it's a BUBBLE. It's not flat on the ground like a pancake. DOES NOT APPLY.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8755
Blast, foiled again!
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Blast, foiled again!


Of course, that's probably why Barrier is so damn useful. Because it's not a flat pancake.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Mmm, I want a sparkly pancake now.

Anyway, if absorbs are an issue, then off-healing from DPS really is a much bigger issue (especially when stacked). It makes no sense for a DPS Shaman's HR to heal for that much, and it's really stupid that a SPriest's Divine Star heals for nearly triple that of a Holy Priest's.

Then you have VEs, HotW Tranqs and AG, with the first two getting further buffs in 5.3, which is just going to further diminish the contribution of the throughput healers. After all, there's little purpose to having high theoretical sustained output when it's just going to get sniped by off-spec heals, simply resulting in higher overhealing.
Edited by Ceddya on 5/13/2013 2:38 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Priest
13820
05/13/2013 09:57 AMPosted by Tiriel
Bottom line: If I can do anything to help preserve someone, I'm going to do it.


That isn't what Ceddya was saying. He isn't saying that SS isn't helpful. He's saying it's not necessary to complete the fight successfully, which is true.


Do you, Ceddya or Volios honestly think I don't understand that?

I mean, really, the first response I had for him was: It's not about a guild being able to do it without SS (ie: does not have a Disc Priest); it's about not using a tool available to you, which is just...silly.

@Ceddya:

Funfetti pancake? It's pretty close!
Edited by Elethia on 5/13/2013 2:52 PM PDT
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05/13/2013 02:36 PMPosted by Tiriel
Blast, foiled again!


Of course, that's probably why Barrier is so damn useful. Because it's not a flat pancake.

Earthquake originally looked like a pancake. And it sucked. :l

05/13/2013 02:38 PMPosted by Ceddya
Anyway, if absorbs are an issue, then off-healing from DPS really is a much bigger issue (especially when stacked). It makes no sense for a DPS Shaman's HR to heal for that much, and it's really stupid that a SPriest's Divine Star heals for nearly triple that of a Holy Priest's.

Can't speak for Shadow Priests, but for DPS Shaman it is mainly Enh's Healing Rain that is very good because of it gets the +20% increase per MW stack from Healing Storm glyph. Even with the Resto +healing from purification, Enh's healing rain does not fall too far behind. Lay down a MWx5 HR, pop Ascendance and AG and then peak to ridiculous HPS that easily matches Tranq/Hymn. For Elemental, the effect is not as prominent because their HR is not as amazing, but couple AG with CL spam on a big pack of adds and your raid is immortal for 10 seconds.

I'm ok with DPS specs having some utility heals like AG and VE, but they should be on the level of "oh, I'll use my CD to help heal the raid a bit", and not the current levels of output they are now. I'm not very fond of making a giant list of raid CDs to chain every 1-2 minutes just to survive.
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100 Undead Priest
10430

I mean, really, the first response I had for him was: It's not about a guild being able to do it without SS (ie: does not have a Disc Priest); it's about not using a tool available to you, which is just...silly.


Why would I use Spirit Shell when we're in between doors and I can Atonement everyone back to 100%?

I said I didn't use SS on most Dire Calls, not that I didn't use it. Since you're being so anal about it I'll give you that much, but you fail to understand this is irrelevant to the original point in regards to absorbs (they are not necessary, nor do they invalidate other non-absorb healers).
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
Do you, Ceddya or Volios honestly think I don't understand that?


And if I'm not mistaken, the reason your made you point was because you were responding to a disc priest who had inexplicably announced she didn't use spirit shell foe that encounter.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13820

I mean, really, the first response I had for him was: It's not about a guild being able to do it without SS (ie: does not have a Disc Priest); it's about not using a tool available to you, which is just...silly.


Why would I use Spirit Shell when we're in between doors and I can Atonement everyone back to 100%?

I said I didn't use SS on most Dire Calls, not that I didn't use it. Since you're being so anal about it I'll give you that much, but you fail to understand this is irrelevant to the original point in regards to absorbs (they are not necessary, nor do they invalidate other non-absorb healers).


Actually, since I'm being "anal," you said "barely using SS".

Maybe it's the difference between 10 and 25 man, but why on earth would I want to contribute to any additional stress on the part of other healers? Are you really saying that the vast majority of your calls came between doors, when there was absolutely no other damage going out?

For that matter, why would you risk your tank's health? Either you're leaving the majority of the tank healing to your druid or you're having to switch to single-target healing.

Fact is, your ability to preempt that damage does mean a lot. And recent history has shown just how problematic absorbs can be. HoF was one demonstration after another. I'll also point out that Disc Priests (and Paladins) can and do continue to suppress the healing of others moreso than any other class.
Edited by Elethia on 5/13/2013 3:11 PM PDT
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05/13/2013 01:11 PMPosted by Tiriel
At least Sanctuary is shinny. I like to pretend the Jin'rokh water pools are what my Healing Rain looks like. 8(


We used to have a running joke that Blizzard makes ground effects pretty in the order of how useless they are.

Thus, Sanctuary (completely useless), Efflo (useful depending on the situation), and Healing Rain (ridiculously useful, but looks like crap).


Earthquake is useless and ugly or is this healer only logic? :P
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Earthquake is useless and ugly or is this healer only logic? :P


DPS don't count! >.>
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100 Undead Priest
10430
Are you really saying that the vast majority of your calls came between doors, when there was absolutely no other damage going out?


No, I'm saying the fight is a piss poor example of why absorbs are "necessary" as has been claimed.

I'll also point out that Disc Priests (and Paladins) can and do continue to suppress the healing of others moreso than any other class.


Suppress healing? What a joke.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
This might explain why you think dps should be drinking healing potions
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100 Night Elf Priest
13820
05/13/2013 04:20 PMPosted by Multicidez
Are you really saying that the vast majority of your calls came between doors, when there was absolutely no other damage going out?


No, I'm saying the fight is a piss poor example of why absorbs are "necessary" as has been claimed.

I'll also point out that Disc Priests (and Paladins) can and do continue to suppress the healing of others moreso than any other class.


Suppress healing? What a joke.


Do you not know what suppression means?

How much healing is needed after a Dire Call if you layer the raid with SS?
How much healing do you leave for the other healers if you preempt Iron Qon's Unleashed Flame with either PW:Shield or SS?
How out Lei Shen's Thunderstruck?

If you're both preemptively shielding and reactively healing, you have more fingers in the pie than a class that can only reactively heal.

Druid/Shaman/Monk/HPriest healing has a lower potential/ceiling [on most encounters] when Paladins and/or Disc Priests are in the raid—Disc Priests specifically, because we can direct PW:Shield and Spirit Shell.

We've gotten better, and right now it's not out of hand enough to be a problem, but it has been an issue in recent history and can easily be one again.
Edited by Elethia on 5/13/2013 5:20 PM PDT
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100 Undead Priest
10430

We've gotten better, and right now it's not out of hand enough to be a problem, but it has been an issue in recent history and can easily be one again.


Then why are you trying so hard to convince everyone it's a problem?
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
How much healing is needed after a Dire Call if you layer the raid with SS?
How much healing do you leave for the other healers if you preempt Iron Qon's Unleashed Flame with either PW:Shield or SS?
How out Lei Shen's Thunderstruck?


The only fight whereby Disc effectively suppresses the other healers is Horridon. There still is a lot of raid damage to heal up on Iron Qon and Lei Shen.

There's a reason why throughput healers are doing so well on fights like Iron Qon, and that's because the sustained output from the throughput healers are easily 10-30% ahead of Disc's. It's something people tend to ignore, but Disc's trade off for being great at fights with one-off damage is its lower peak sustained output.
Edited by Ceddya on 5/13/2013 9:52 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
12820
I mean, really, the first response I had for him was: It's not about a guild being able to do it without SS (ie: does not have a Disc Priest); it's about not using a tool available to you, which is just...silly.


My issue wasn't with your comment at all, it's just the post I chose to respond to in order to make a point. My response was more directed at the "lol absorbs so OP always" type of mindset, which I'm not claiming is your personal view of the situation.

In terms of H Horridon, yes, I actually could see not even bothering to SS on some of the doors. This is because all it does on some of the doors is trade damage output/DA application to snipe healing and/or cover for mistakes that are supposed to kill people. That damage output may not seem like much but it does add up, particularly because Horridon is primarily a DPS/execution check, not a healing check.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13820
How much healing is needed after a Dire Call if you layer the raid with SS?
How much healing do you leave for the other healers if you preempt Iron Qon's Unleashed Flame with either PW:Shield or SS?
How out Lei Shen's Thunderstruck?


The only fight whereby Disc effectively suppresses the other healers is Horridon. There still is a lot of raid damage to heal up on Iron Qon and Lei Shen.

There's a reason why throughput healers are doing so well on fights like Iron Qon, and that's because the sustained output from the throughput healers are easily 10-30% ahead of Disc's. It's something people tend to ignore, but Disc's trade off for being great at fights with one-off damage is its lower peak sustained output.


You'll notice that I gave specific spells. Suppression happens on many fights; it just doesn't happen throughout every phase, and things get the chance to level out on most.


We've gotten better, and right now it's not out of hand enough to be a problem, but it has been an issue in recent history and can easily be one again.


Then why are you trying so hard to convince everyone it's a problem?


Please point to where I've done that. I've contributed two main thoughts to this thread:

(1) Absorbs are not currently a problem, but have been and can easily become so again. They should be monitored carefully, and something should probably be changed in order to better balance absorption with healing.

(2) Regardless of whether Spirit Shell is necessary, not using it or making very little use of it for a mechanic for which it's essentially perfect is nothing to boast about. There may be less of a tradeoff at the 10M level, but I've seen Dire Call drop people perilously low on occasions where a SS has been missed or mistimed. On the topic of other cooldowns being suitable: sure, but none of them are on a 1 minute cooldown.

I'm also going to point out that, while Volios is right about the DPS/execution check, a DPS saved after making a mistake because you've used Spirit Shell is going to provide a heck of a lot more damage than what you're going to do in up to 15 seconds.
Edited by Elethia on 5/14/2013 3:02 PM PDT
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