Subtlety: Find Weakness 100% - New Sims

90 Human Rogue
9780
Just implemented the new changes in simcraft, looks to be about a ~10k increase in dps.

Old: (Live)
http://hostr.co/file/OO7WAZoRooNh/Screenshot-on-2013-05-02-at-20.50.01.png

New: (PTR)
http://hostr.co/file/BLoA5SZb4ygs/Screenshot-on-2013-05-02-at-20.50.36.png

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Edit:

Here's subtlety compared to the other rogue specs as well:
http://hostr.co/file/Ycg6i6jfQepB/Screenshot-on-2013-05-02-at-21.48.21.png

I think we will be able to choose whichever spec we want now, so long as fight mechanics allow us to. (I'm thinking something like CnD + Shadow Dance on Ju-Kun :) or on large dps increase fights like Horridon and Jin-Rokh)

-------------

Edit 2:

Here's an updated list of every spec: (Warlocks and Frost/Arcane mages missing due to being bugged in SC atm)

Tier 15 Heroic:
http://hostr.co/file/y5wRbRdfpAco/Screenshot-on-2013-05-02-at-23.11.56.png

Tier 15 Normal:
http://hostr.co/file/VYXSJCck4fwb/Screenshot-on-2013-05-02-at-23.34.07.png

Includes:
- Hunter +25% ap buff
- Subtlety 100% FW
- Feral druid 40% SR
- Unholy DK SS buff / FS nerf
- Enhancement shaman changes

Does not include:
- Living bomb change
- Ret pally SoL change
- Anything else I forgot
Edited by Dansu on 5/2/2013 8:34 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Monk
16295
10k in relation to what? cause a 10k dps increase at ilvl 460 would be sick.

edit: nvm T15

seems meh.
Edited by Sichel on 5/2/2013 6:30 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13885
Dansu tweeted me this:

Preliminary sims put this change as a +5.6% overall damage increase for sub in H T15 BiS gear.

I have zero experience with SimC, so I can't easily corroborate or confirm any of this. (If I'm being ignorant about who you are and the role you play with SimC, Dansu, I apologize!) But if that's the kind of increase we're looking at with the FW change, that instinctively feels to me like it's likely not large enough to convert rogue masses.
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100 Night Elf Monk
16295
Those numbers concur with the ones fierydemise pointed to in another thread, so it seems accurate, coming from 2 sources.

man I got all excited too. here's hoping for a backstab buff. or a lower vanish cd.
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90 Human Rogue
9780
Dansu tweeted me this:

Preliminary sims put this change as a +5.6% overall damage increase for sub in H T15 BiS gear.

I have zero experience with SimC, so I can't easily corroborate or confirm any of this. (If I'm being ignorant about who you are and the role you play with SimC, Dansu, I apologize!) But if that's the kind of increase we're looking at with the FW change, that instinctively feels to me like it's likely not large enough to convert rogue masses.


Those sims are actually a 5.1534% increase, the 5.6% number was from napkin math before I updated the code. (I was obviously a bit off >.<)

But yes, that is me on twitter. :D

-------------

If anyone plays a DK, I implemented the unholy changes as well that can be found here:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8769366873#1
Edited by Dansu on 5/2/2013 6:39 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13885
Those numbers concur with the ones fierydemise pointed to in another thread, so it seems accurate, coming from 2 sources.

I *really* like it when ShadowCraft and SimC agree. Makes me feel so much more secure that, at the absolute worst, our top theorycrafters are making the same mistakes. :)
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100 Troll Rogue
21875
I *really* like it when ShadowCraft and SimC agree. Makes me feel so much more secure that, at the absolute worst, our top theorycrafters are making the same mistakes. :)

I love it too because then people don't ask as many questions.
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90 Troll Rogue
10465
SimC seems to provide more accurate results than shadowcraft. Has more options and data and @ 10,000 iterations on a singular patchwerk style fight you'll get better results.

I've always used shadowcraft as a quick resource tool and SimC as the tool I feel comfortable about the results with.
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90 Human Rogue
9780
Updated my OP to show subtlety in comparison to the other rogue specs.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13885
I've always used shadowcraft as a quick resource tool and SimC as the tool I feel comfortable about the results with.

Let's please not have that conversation again in a thread about a completely different subject.
Edited by Rfeann on 5/2/2013 6:54 PM PDT
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90 Troll Rogue
10465
Yeah I mean, WHO would even bring up shadowcraft in a simC thread first anyway?

05/02/2013 06:42 PMPosted by Rfeann
I *really* like it when ShadowCraft and SimC agree.


Oh.

Anyway thanks for the updates Dansu. I look forward to giving Sub another shot once this goes live. I don't think this buff is going to help us much in the way of AoE with sub though.
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90 Human Rogue
9780
Yeah I mean, WHO would even bring up shadowcraft in a simC thread first anyway?

I *really* like it when ShadowCraft and SimC agree.


Oh.

Anyway thanks for the updates Dansu. I look forward to giving Sub another shot once this goes live. I don't think this buff is going to help us much in the way of AoE with sub though.


No problem my fellow roguie rogue! :)
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100 Troll Rogue
21875
Here's subtlety compared to the other rogue specs as well:
http://hostr.co/file/Ycg6i6jfQepB/Screenshot-on-2013-05-02-at-21.48.21.png

I think we will be able to choose whichever spec we want now, so long as fight mechanics allow us to. (I'm thinking something like CnD + Shadow Dance on Ju-Kun :) or on large dps increase fights like Horridon and Jin-Rokh)

Ideally but the problem with sub has never been raw damage. Its the fact that raw bust isn't that interesting for raiding much weaker target swapping, low target aoe and positional requirements are much bigger problems.

As for simcraft vs. shadowcraft, different tools are useful for different things. The best approach is to use them in consort like we are starting to now.
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90 Human Rogue
9780
Here's subtlety compared to the other rogue specs as well:
http://hostr.co/file/Ycg6i6jfQepB/Screenshot-on-2013-05-02-at-21.48.21.png

I think we will be able to choose whichever spec we want now, so long as fight mechanics allow us to. (I'm thinking something like CnD + Shadow Dance on Ju-Kun :) or on large dps increase fights like Horridon and Jin-Rokh)

Ideally but the problem with sub has never been raw damage. Its the fact that raw bust isn't that interesting for raiding much weaker target swapping, low target aoe and positional requirements are much bigger problems.

As for simcraft vs. shadowcraft, different tools are useful for different things. The best approach is to use them in consort like we are starting to now.


Agreed. I don't really mind sub's aoe, but target switching is so hard on us. I think they could probably help this by putting Sanguinary Vein on hemo. (Because I doubt they would remove Sanguinary Vein altogether and buff the damage elsewhere, even though imo it needs to be done eventually)

Positional requirements are also pretty annoying but I don't mind them that much either because I just find a way to make it work. (Unless it's impossible like ultraxion)
Edited by Dansu on 5/2/2013 7:09 PM PDT
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100 Troll Rogue
21875
Sub's AoE isn't bad on large groups where sub's AoE falls down is on low target AoE which tends to be far more common in raids. As for positionals, sure you can handle them but if you have another spec that doesn't need to handle them why would make your life more difficult? (From a progression raiding perspective)
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90 Human Rogue
9780
Updated my OP with:

Here's an updated list of every spec: (Warlocks and Frost/Arcane mages missing due to being bugged in SC atm)

Tier 15 Heroic:
http://hostr.co/file/y5wRbRdfpAco/Screenshot-on-2013-05-02-at-23.11.56.png

Tier 15 Normal:
http://hostr.co/file/VYXSJCck4fwb/Screenshot-on-2013-05-02-at-23.34.07.png

Includes:
- Hunter +25% ap buff
- Subtlety 100% FW
- Feral druid 40% SR
- Unholy DK SS buff / FS nerf
- Enhancement shaman changes

Does not include:
- Living bomb change
- Ret pally SoL change
- Anything else I forgot


--------------------------

Sub's AoE isn't bad on large groups where sub's AoE falls down is on low target AoE which tends to be far more common in raids. As for positionals, sure you can handle them but if you have another spec that doesn't need to handle them why would make your life more difficult? (From a progression raiding perspective)


I can understand that. For heroics you have to be more aware/do certain things and you don't want the added stuff that subtlety makes you do, but for me (I only do LFR or normals) it's not that bad.
Edited by Dansu on 5/2/2013 8:34 PM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
9780
T15 normal profiles also posted. This tells me that sub is actually ahead and that the meta gem is carrying assassination. Once this tier is over (or whenever we stop using the meta), sub will be the strongest.
Edited by Dansu on 5/2/2013 8:35 PM PDT
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100 Troll Rogue
21875
T15 normal profiles also posted. This tells me that sub is actually ahead and that the meta gem is carrying assassination. Once this tier is over (or whenever we stop using the meta), sub will be the strongest.
\
I don't buy that conclusion at all. Look at these these heroic jinrohk logs from each sub, combat and assassination.
Assassination: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-tvrzz4f0o615ta34/details/26/?s=391&e=634
6.8%
Sub: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-58ms6rcuyk5xkkxe/details/1/?s=3528&e=3888
6.4%
Combat: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-aoi769q65rnleg1j/details/10/?s=591&e=813
7.1%

Based on this its hard to say assassination gains substantially more from the meta gem then other specs.
Edited by Fierydemise on 5/2/2013 8:52 PM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
9780
05/02/2013 08:52 PMPosted by Fierydemise
T15 normal profiles also posted. This tells me that sub is actually ahead and that the meta gem is carrying assassination. Once this tier is over (or whenever we stop using the meta), sub will be the strongest.
\
I don't buy that conclusion at all. Look at these these heroic jinrohk logs from each sub, combat and assassination.
Assassination: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-tvrzz4f0o615ta34/details/26/?s=391&e=634
6.8%
Sub: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-58ms6rcuyk5xkkxe/details/1/?s=3528&e=3888
6.4%
Combat: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-aoi769q65rnleg1j/details/10/?s=591&e=813
7.1%

Based on this its hard to say assassination gains substantially more from the meta gem then other specs.


Maybe carry was a big strong, but it definitely benefits more from it than subtlety. Live parses are fine and all, but unless it's a lot of them at once, it's hard to get an accurate picture due to rng. (Something like raidbots showing buff uptime comes to mind)

For that sim I posted, here are the dps/total dps values for the meta gem for each spec:

Assassination: 17480 / 8.2%
Combat: 15086 / 7.2%
Subtlety: 11157 / 5.3%

So that being said, the reverse order would likely be seen in terms of total dps for T15H if they did not have a meta gem. (Like what is seen in the T15 sim)

This is mostly how I cam to that conclusion if that makes sense.
Edited by Dansu on 5/2/2013 9:09 PM PDT
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100 Troll Rogue
21875
Ideally sure we'd like to have a larger data set but my suspicion is simcraft is mishandling the meta gem for assassination and sub.

There aren't many logs for sub rogues with the strike but over the 15 or so I can't find anything below 5.8% and most are about 6.2% on jinrohk.

Similarly for assassination I can't find a lightning strike over 7.5% and most in the 7% range.
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