Crit and AA with 4pc

90 Draenei Shaman
10830
I have seen many posters write about "crit is devauled because of the 4pc" and I have to ask myself, why was this statement ever made?

4pc tier 15 will allow AA to proc off of non-crit heals as well. So, every heal you throw currently, despite the amount of crit you have, that has a chance to proc AA on a crit, will now also have a chance to proc AA on non-crits. Is that freaking awesome?

Crit can't be devalued. Crit is RNG and that makes it wonky at times, but the 4pc buffs AA through non-crits.

Crit makes you heal for more, returns mana through resurgence and procs a smart heal:it is valuable to a high degree. The 4 piece simply allows one of your smart heals to proc on any heal related to AA.

Someone please explain to me what I am missing here.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
I have seen many posters write about "crit is devauled because of the 4pc" and I have to ask myself, why was this statement ever made?

4pc tier 15 will allow AA to proc off of non-crit heals as well. So, every heal you throw currently, despite the amount of crit you have, that has a chance to proc AA on a crit, will now also have a chance to proc AA on non-crits. Is that freaking awesome?

Crit can't be devalued. Crit is RNG and that makes it wonky at times, but the 4pc buffs AA through non-crits.

Crit makes you heal for more, returns mana through resurgence and procs a smart heal:it is valuable to a high degree. The 4 piece simply allows one of your smart heals to proc on any heal related to AA.

Someone please explain to me what I am missing here.


The 4pc set bonus gives you a 50% change to proc AA on non-crit heals. It automatically procs on Crit heals. If you have 10% Crit, you gain the set bonus on 45% of direct heal casts. If you have 20% Crit, you only gain it on 40%. The higher your Crit percentage, the less throughput your 4 piece bonus gives you. It doesn't mean that Crit isn't going to increase your throughput - it still will signficantly, because you get the throughput bonus of the Crit heals, plus the guaranteed AA proc (200% stronger than 4 piece procs). However, it does mean that as your Crit scales up, your 4 piece value scales down, so the value of Crit is reduced relative to where it is when you don't have the set bonus.

The biggest thing that I find devalues Crit this tier is more the fact that regen scaling from metas and higher ilvl gear reduces the value of the extra Resurgence regen gained from Crit. When you find yourself swimming in excess mana, you are likely going to gain more from looking into reforging to higher haste breakpoints than you would be to stay at minimal haste and continue to stack Crit.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
14610
Tiberria answered it - each 'Crit Rating' still makes your Shaman better, but by slightly less than it did before. Lets say each point of Crit Rating gives you "+2 to Resto-Shaman-Awesomeness", after 4T15 you might value it as "+1.9 to Resto-Shaman-Awesomeness". No-one is saying the value of crit becomes 0 or negative.

It is my opinion that most of the value of Crit for Shamans comes from the Regen it gives and the throughput it adds to Healing Rain, moreso than AA procs. So with that in mind the 'main benefits' of Crit are unaffected.
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17450
Crit is and always has been disgusting anyway.
Edited by Sensations on 5/5/2013 7:32 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Tiberria answered it - each 'Crit Rating' still makes your Shaman better, but by slightly less than it did before. Lets say each point of Crit Rating gives you "+2 to Resto-Shaman-Awesomeness", after 4T15 you might value it as "+1.9 to Resto-Shaman-Awesomeness". No-one is saying the value of crit becomes 0 or negative.

It is my opinion that most of the value of Crit for Shamans comes from the Regen it gives and the throughput it adds to Healing Rain, moreso than AA procs. So with that in mind the 'main benefits' of Crit are unaffected.


Here were the two main reasons that most 25 man Shaman went with a Spirit/Crit build in T14.

1. Crit is mathematically superior than Mastery on targets above ~35% HP for single target and ~65% HP for AoE heals. In most 25 man raid situations, the majority of Shaman output was on targets at higher HP levels than those thresholds, making Crit mathematically better.
2. Mana was a big enough limiting factor at those gear/Spirit levels, and the HST/HTT haste thresholds were buggier than they are currently (but still not 100% fixed). Regen wasn't really high enough to support haste stacking and the next highest viable haste threshold was in the 5600 range.
3. The extra regen gained from Resurgence was highly useful when you didn't have 15,000+ Spirit, didn't have OP Horridon trinkets and legendary metas, etc, making Crit that much more attractive.

All of these are bigger factors than the 4 piece set bonus in why people are moving away from Crit. Higher haste thresholds are more of an option, and mana is less of an issue.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
10830
OK, the correct way of making this statement should be: With high amounts of crit, the 4pc is devalued. I still take exception to this.

If you have 10% Crit, you gain the set bonus on 45% of direct heal casts. If you have 20% Crit, you only gain it on 40%


Where do these percentages you give come from? Did I miss a post that detailed the mathiness of this set?

I run high crit. Almost 28% from gear and over 33% raid buffed. I assume that 1 out of 3 of my heals that proc AA will crit and the other 2 that didnt, have a 50% chance to proc AA with the 4pc. The 4pc reads like a straight buff to AA, regardless of the fact that crit heals proc'd AA before.

I do not have the 4pc yet, but with such high crit I am already contemplating reforging spirit into mastery (I never go oom, and am comfortable with 12.5% haste) as going for 50% crit just seems rediculous.

The meta is crazy good and mana seems to be a non-issue with as much crit as I am running, maybe I went to far down the rabbit hole. Maybe I will replace some of this haste...maybe
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
10830
Sensations likes mastery, we heard you...

mastery is icing, crit is cake...chocolate cake!
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17450
Sensations likes mastery, we heard you...

mastery is icing, crit is cake...chocolate cake!


It's not that I like mastery, it's that in a realistic situation when someone needs healing, mastery will be there while crit won't. It's simply more reliable, I don't care how my meters look while healing up irrelevant damage :p.
Edited by Sensations on 5/5/2013 8:12 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
10830
Who said anything about meters? I never cared for them.

Mastery is great, it's always there, even when you crit. Crit, crit, crit.

Anywho, the topic was for AA and the 4pc and why people assume crit will be "devalued" by having a 4pc equipped.

Will I suddenly stop critting as often if I have a 4pc on? Not likely. AA will surely proc more at high crit levels, seeing as that's how AA works.
Reply Quote
I personally like crit more than Mastery, but that is only as a personal preference rather than a pure mathematical PoV. I've gone back to Mastery-heavy for now, though, and dont have even the 2p to go for the HST/HTT breakpoint :(

Where do these percentages you give come from? Did I miss a post that detailed the mathiness of this set?

It is just math applied to the situation. With 10% Crit, as Tiberria mentioned, you (ideally) get AA procs on 10% of your casted heals that can proc AA, while the other 90% does not proc it. With the 4p, half of your non-crit spells will proc AA, so that means that at 10% Crit the 4p makes an extra 45% of your casts to proc AA (90% x 0.5). Now, raise the Crit to 20%. You have 80% casts that are not crit, so the 4p only gives you an extra 40% of casts proccing AA (80% x 0.5). Raise it to 30% crit, and you only get 35% more casts proccing AA, etc.

Thus, the more Crit you have, the less benefit you get from the 4p. Inversely, the less Crit you have, the more benefit you get out of it. This diminishes the benefit of Crit in terms of AA procs, but not by much as it has been stated already.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
Crit is and always has been disgusting anyway.


Lies.

As others have said crit was more about resurgence earlier on but with the meta and current spirit from gear mana is not as tight as it used to be.

Shaman mastery has always been blah. Don't get me wrong when someone is really hurting it fixes them up quick but not near as cool as the rest of the masteries of the other healing classes, less maybe little green orbs falling out of people randomly.
Reply Quote
14 Night Elf Druid
0
Resurgence returns from gearing crit over mastery are not and were not ever significant. You get significant Resurgence mana gain regardless of whether or not you go crit.
In most 25 man raid situations, the majority of Shaman output was on targets at higher HP levels than those thresholds, making Crit mathematically better.
I guess this is in a situation where H Empress never existed
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
17270
Crit and AA with 4pc.
On average the 4pc increases the size of your HW non-crits by 15%.
HW (non-crit, no 4p) = 100%
HW (non-crit, 4p) = 115%
HW (crit) = 260%

Meaning, the additional healing done by single target, AA eligible spells goes from being 160% to 145%. That's an overall decrease in the value of crit. Of course 80+% of your healing comes from spells and effects that aren't AA eligible, so it doesn't actually change the value of crit much at all.

H Empress... to me this fight was more about topping people off for discharge / phase3 half health'er than it was getting back up from it. If the fight wasn't so gibby perhaps people could have used fewer healers and the recovery from the bursts wouldn't have been so quick that the "time under 50%" would have been more significant. HTT/Asc/HR idealness/MTT, oh MTT, Tremor... these are why shaman's were great on this fight not mastery. If shaman's had druid mastery they would have done even better (or hpally mastery lol).
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17450
05/06/2013 04:20 AMPosted by Harpoa
Crit is and always has been disgusting anyway.


Lies.

As others have said crit was more about resurgence earlier on but with the meta and current spirit from gear mana is not as tight as it used to be.

Shaman mastery has always been blah. Don't get me wrong when someone is really hurting it fixes them up quick but not near as cool as the rest of the masteries of the other healing classes, less maybe little green orbs falling out of people randomly.


We'll just be forced and agree to disagree :)
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
10830
Resurgence returns from gearing crit over mastery are not and were not ever significant. You get significant Resurgence mana gain regardless of whether or not you go crit.


This is wrong.

Resurgence procs from crits, the more you crit the more you get mana back. Much more at high crit values
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
OK, the correct way of making this statement should be: With high amounts of crit, the 4pc is devalued.


In this case, it's the same thing.

05/06/2013 09:56 AMPosted by Kangarooster
Resurgence returns from gearing crit over mastery are not and were not ever significant.


HPM = (Healing Done) / (Mana Cost)

Note that Crit not only reduces the mana cost, but also improves the healing done, so it double dips.
Reply Quote
14 Night Elf Druid
0
No, I mean, if you review logs over how much Resurgence returns for a RShammy gearing crit and gearing mastery, the difference IS NOT SIGNIFICANT.

I compared Sensations (mastery) and my Rshammy, Glaciationz (crit) back in T14, and they were rocking nearly 15% crit apart. Resurgence difference - around 40k mana, out of 250k. And that was just on Garalon - on some fights, it was even LOWER.

I know how Resurgence works, y'all just haven't compared logs. It's simple as that, Resurgence returns a lot of mana regardless and gearing crit really doesn't make it that much better.
Edited by Kangarooster on 5/7/2013 12:47 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Using a 15% Crit difference and assuming the spell returns the full 8849 mana per proc:

At 25% Crit, each spell cast returns 2212.25 mana.
At 10% Crit, each spell cast returns 884.9 mana.

250,000 / 2212.25 = 113 casts
210,000 / 884.9 = 237 casts

Do you see the difference?

Anyways, yes. In order for Resurgence to proc, you need to cast spells that proc Resurgence. That doesn't happen a lot on some raid encounters and in some raid sizes and in some raid difficulties.

Consider what HPM does again, particularly in mana-limited environments.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
17270
Ironically, this debate falls into a state of irrelevance once people actually are in a position to get the 4pc normal... as that's about when people just kinda drop the bulk crit and mastery in favor of new and exciting haste breakpoints. Leaving so few crit/mastery secondary stats as flexible that it REALLY won't make a difference.

(:
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
The majority of numerical analyses of Resto Shaman stats is irrelevant.

=[
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]