10M loot situation

90 Pandaren Monk
9130
If gearing is the same in 10-man and 25-man, then why is it 2 pieces of gear for 10 man and 6 pieces of gear for 25 man?

(6 pieces / 25 people) > (2 pieces / 10 people)
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
25 mans get full bis heroic thunderforge the second they step foot in TOT, and every 10 man group has 460 gear still because they de everything.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9130
I'm just asking why people think gearing is easier in 10 man when 25 man gets 20% more loot per person.

Mathematically, more gear per person = faster gearing rate.
Edited by Snapmonk on 5/7/2013 9:43 PM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
aus
19960
I'm just asking why people think gearing is easier in 10 man when 25 man gets 20% more loot per person.


Who said it was?.

25 man gets more loot, 25 man needs more loot.

The question is , does 10 man get enough loot so that its not interfering with progression or are people just not getting geared. Too which my reply is I think its fine.

For example we kill twin consorts for the first time, in theory we get 1 tier token and one offset.

What actually happens is most blow a coin and 2 players get an tier token in addition to the boss drops, coins even out the rng. Their is no 10 man loot situation.
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100 Troll Rogue
17115
05/07/2013 10:08 PMPosted by Mate
blow a coin and 2 players get an tier token in addition to the boss drops,


^ This my raid has all conq users with heroic legs, conq legs have never actually dropped from Ji'kun.

Gearing up in 10s is actually better then it has ever been, RNG happens but it can happen in 25 man too.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8305
I'm getting really frustrated with tier token bosses only dropping one piece of non-tier loot. On this toon alone I've killed Council 7 times now and rolled every time - no weapon in sight. Tier pieces are getting vendored at this point because no one needs them, and that is literally a problem that can only increase with time. And my other two possible weapon drops in ToT? Dark Animus and Consorts, both tier bosses!
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13330
For example we kill twin consorts for the first time, in theory we get 1 tier token and one offset.

What actually happens is most blow a coin and 2 players get an tier token in addition to the boss drops, coins even out the rng. Their is no 10 man loot situation.

No. What actually happens is:

- In 19.7% of raids, nobody wins anything on their extra roll.
- In 34.7% of raids, one person wins something.
- In 27.6% of raids, two people win something.
- In 13.0% of raids, three people win something.
- In 4.0% of raids, four people win something.
- In 0.8% of raids, five people win something.
The remaining cases are negligible.

If you assume that each spec is eligible for 3 total drops (probably an underestimate), then each person who wins something has a 33% chance of getting a token, so that works out to:
60.2% of raids get no tier tokens;
31.3% of raids get 1 tier token;
7.3% of raids get 2 tier tokens;
1.0% of raids get 3 tier tokens.

In other words, your argument is based on something that happens less than 10% of the time. That's absolutely not "what actually happens," as you put it. In fact, the expected (average) number of tier tokens per boss where all 10 people use charms is about 0.5. Seeing 2 or more is very rare. Seeing 1 is relatively common, but 0 is by far the most common outcome.

The expected overall value of coins in a 10m raid, if everyone uses 3 coins per week, is about 4.5 items per week, or less than the value of past systems where tier bosses dropped 2 pieces of loot and a token.

And coins do not 'smooth out' RNG. They add another layer of RNG on top of your RNG. The base loot system is just one layer of RNG; every raid gets the same number of drops, but those drops are randomly selected. The tokens are two layers: a random trial to see if you get a drop, and then a random roll to determine what it is. Coins have a substantially higher variability in number of useful drops than the base system. The overall variance in raid gearing under the coins + drops system is higher than the variance with drops alone.
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
on tier bosses, you get ONE item that isnt tier in 10.

i'll gently remind everyone how large the ToT loot tables are.
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100 Tauren Druid
21425
on tier bosses, you get ONE item that isnt tier in 10.

i'll gently remind everyone how large the ToT loot tables are.


And I'll remind people of the larger amount of people needed in a 25 man guild. The faster gearing is to facilitate also gearing up those on the bench as well. 10 mans rarely need a bench. 25s, as have been pointed out... need a minimum of 30 people in order to raid properly. Most run around 35 (and we've had 40 people at some points)

If we couldn't gear up faster, our bench would be in gearing hell and it would hinder us when we needed to bring bench people in, as well as be an even bigger headache when it comes to shuffling people around to get them all experience on the fights.

Basically, 10 mans have the loot issues, but convenience of size and ease of organisation.

25s have the problems inherent in organising a large group and an easier time gearing.

If you were expecting 10 man to have all the positive aspects then I'm sorry but you're deluded. The faster gearing is an incentive (apparently) to run 25s....
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
2 drops + 1 piece of tier would be decent. it wasnt as big an issue when 3 tier pieces were available for valor, and shoulders/helm needed a token. to keep the incentive in 25, add drops to tier bosses in 25 as well. that would be reasonable, they are in the same boat but with more people to gear.

we still havent seen the caster dps trinket off council, or a sword. lot of 1h weapons, though. of course 25's need more gear, but with 1 drop and so many items on the table, you almost need to hope for a coin roll to work.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
Does anything on this forum not turn into a 25vs10 debate?

Problem that exists in both sizes is the loot table is too bloated this tier. Pretty simple really.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
The loot table needed the size - last tier was a nightmare for some classes. Getting a Hunter weapon, for example, was like pulling teeth, and many Hunters (yes, in 25-man guilds) were using a blue for most of the tier. I didn't get my Lei Shi weapon until after I was 16/16H.


10 man experienced the same thing. So raid size has nothing to do with it. In the 25 man i was in last tier the rogue was using blue weapons until H Tsulong. And it was strickly a RNG issue. Adding RNG with bloated loot tables make things worse imo. But then again that is just my opinion.
Edited by Taelaus on 5/8/2013 7:42 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14370
I just wanna know...

On t11... Cho'gall always dropped 1 token + 2 items. Nefarian, 1 token + 2 items.

The token was "extra loot". Now we get a Conqueror token + 1 item. Vanquisher? What is Vanquisher? Lucky I dropped my useless mage.

Well, "let's remove the extra loot, it's a great idea!". I'm sure the hunters from my group was happy on t14 with no Sha-Touched weapon prom Lei-Shi because of the 1 drop week plus big loot table.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
People in 10-mans are complaining about RNG and think that 25s have it made-in-the-shade. That's simply not the case. They're demanding higher drops on the notion that 25s have it better, without actually understanding the loot situation in real-world 25s


I now raid in a 10 man with friends as i can't commit the same amount of time i used to be able to and i haven't demanded anything. Lumping everyone together because of a few posts seems like bad practice.
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
The tuning is already different for 10-vs-25


While they end up being tuned differently Blizzard doesn't intend it to be so that doesn't really float. Some of the fights end up being harder solely because having more/less people makes the fight easier/harder of a problem.

Ex: HRag was harder on 25 people because having to avoid meteors was harder than 10 people

Ex: HHagera was harder on 10 people because not having 25 people to instachain lightning sucked.

If Blizzard could snap their fingers to make both fights considered just as hard as the other version they would.
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10

10 man experienced the same thing. So raid size has nothing to do with it. In the 25 man i was in last tier the rogue was using blue weapons until H Tsulong. And it was strickly a RNG issue. Adding RNG with bloated loot tables make things worse imo. But then again that is just my opinion.


You're missing the point. People in 10-mans are complaining about RNG and think that 25s have it made-in-the-shade. That's simply not the case. They're demanding higher drops on the notion that 25s have it better, without actually understanding the loot situation in real-world 25s.


noones asking for special treatment, add drops on tier bosses for 10, and do the same for 25.

theres 1 item that isnt tier on a tier boss. when there are like 20 items on the loot table, getting that 1 item is very difficult.
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