10M loot situation

90 Blood Elf Paladin
12805
We only get leather and plate dps gear.

We can't use either.

But hey, we have enough enchanting mats to last a life time.
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90 Goblin Hunter
13400
I just wanna know...

On t11... Cho'gall always dropped 1 token + 2 items. Nefarian, 1 token + 2 items.

The token was "extra loot". Now we get a Conqueror token + 1 item. Vanquisher? What is Vanquisher? Lucky I dropped my useless mage.

Well, "let's remove the extra loot, it's a great idea!". I'm sure the hunters from my group was happy on t14 with no Sha-Touched weapon prom Lei-Shi because of the 1 drop week plus big loot table.


I think the reason there was because T11 and 12 only 2 bosses that dropped tier, the other pieces you bought with VP. That's the only similarity I've thought of, too much extra loot (from Blizz's standpoint) to have 5 bosses drop 3 items when you're supposed to be getting 2 pieces. 2 bosses isn't as bad.

I don't know which is right, just guessing at Blizz's thinking.
Edited by Zikx on 5/8/2013 1:32 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
I just wanna know...

On t11... Cho'gall always dropped 1 token + 2 items. Nefarian, 1 token + 2 items.

The token was "extra loot". Now we get a Conqueror token + 1 item. Vanquisher? What is Vanquisher? Lucky I dropped my useless mage.

Well, "let's remove the extra loot, it's a great idea!". I'm sure the hunters from my group was happy on t14 with no Sha-Touched weapon prom Lei-Shi because of the 1 drop week plus big loot table.


I think the reason there was because T11 and 12 only 2 bosses that dropped tier, the other pieces you bought with VP. That's the only similarity I've thought of, too much extra loot (from Blizz's standpoint) to have 5 bosses drop 3 items when you're supposed to be getting 2 pieces. 2 bosses isn't as bad.

I don't know which is right, just guessing at Blizz's thinking.


It's hard to keep up when they do stuff like that, and sometimes put what was it, 3 daggers in DS?
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100 Human Priest
19420
It's hard to keep up when they do stuff like that, and sometimes put what was it, 3 daggers in DS?


When every rogue had the legendary starters besides?

How about if a raid leader got to eliminate one category of loot that can't be used by the raid? 10s and 25s. However, 25s are more likely to be able to have all loot types used.

Ten man can't bring all 11 classes. Some loot categories are very limited: intellect plate (one spec), intellect mail (two specs of one class), intellect leather (three specs over two classes), spirit cloth (three specs of only one class), dodge/parry plate (three specs - and you could have only leather tanks).

We have had people reroll if someone quits game for RL reasons due to loot balancing. Our current group doesn't have users of int plate or int leather. Keeping more than one raid ready toon is a huge effort this expansion (by design).

Playing what you like and with your friends in a 10 man raid is generally not compatible with using all the loot. Being a healing priest and friends with a shadow priest is a good start on being in a loot screwed raid composition.

When you consider loot (normal and tier), melee vs. ranged, and buff coverage, the composition of an optimal 10 is rough.
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90 Draenei Monk
6795
I'm just asking why people think gearing is easier in 10 man when 25 man gets 20% more loot per person.

Mathematically, more gear per person = faster gearing rate.


Well to start with it's far easier to get 10 people together than it is to get 25...
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90 Troll Rogue
14790
theres 1 item that isnt tier on a tier boss. when there are like 20 items on the loot table, getting that 1 item is very difficult.


So use a coin on that boss? You have a 50% chance of getting your item if you win loot from the coin, players complained about lei shi, which had about 5 items including bis weapon and tier I prefer the TOT way of doing things to be quite honest.

I'm pretty sure many 25 man raiders have RNG bad luck stories as bad as any 10 man raider has, there's also a much better chance of your drop when it does drop going to someone else because of more competition for loot especially for cloth dps classes.
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90 Dwarf Warlock
14300
To be honest, my primary concern with 10-man loot is that, because we have 10 Heroic needing to be at the same iLvL as 25 Heroic now, there's no "gap" in content difficulty. It used to be that 10-man was easier than 25, so you could use 10-man as a bridge into more serious raiding.

Now, that's not the case, and in MoP we've seen a lot of players who opt to just do LFR and find 10 Normal too hard to do now. That's probably a fair complaint, some of the raids in T14 were mechanically complex compared to T13, and certainly the tuning of T13 @ 30% nerf versus T14 was a shock for some people.

So, yeah, since 10 Heroic has essentially a third of the players, it gets a third of the loot drops, which greatly increases your RNG. It has to be that way though, unless they lower the iLvL and tuning of 10-mans across the board (i.e. Wrath style).


I'm going to be honest.

I raided hard modes in Ulduar. Did ToGC and quit shortly after ICC came in to burnout. I skipped raiding the entirety of Cataclysm.

Coming in and seeing that not everyone and their mom has been able to steamroll normal Lei Shen by now(patch has been out for quite some time now) is astonishing. If this was the Wrath raid cycle and you hadn't cleared the current tier fully by now you'd been told you suck.

I'm not accustomed to this and I still have absolutely no idea what an average progression looks like anymore.

Was debating on dipping toes back into raiding again but seeing guilds struggle on NORMALS doesn't bode well to me. It just irks me with the stink of "suck". Heroic raiding was supposed to be the hard one I thought? 10 normal used to be a cakewalk.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6240
05/08/2013 06:56 PMPosted by Sabod
theres 1 item that isnt tier on a tier boss. when there are like 20 items on the loot table, getting that 1 item is very difficult.


I'm pretty sure many 25 man raiders have RNG bad luck stories as bad as any 10 man raider has, there's also a much better chance of your drop when it does drop going to someone else because of more competition for loot especially for cloth dps classes.


I doubt that. 9 Heroic Jin'rokh kills, 1 normal kill. No Rentaki's has ever dropped for us, nor have we rolled it and we coin it every week.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9130
05/09/2013 12:23 AMPosted by Ginshen


I'm pretty sure many 25 man raiders have RNG bad luck stories as bad as any 10 man raider has, there's also a much better chance of your drop when it does drop going to someone else because of more competition for loot especially for cloth dps classes.


I doubt that. 9 Heroic Jin'rokh kills, 1 normal kill. No Rentaki's has ever dropped for us, nor have we rolled it and we coin it every week.


RNG is RNG. I got mine Thunderforged from a roll.

15% to win loot from roll * 33% chance to win the trinket (3 possible loot for AGI leather specs) * 10% for thunderforged = 0.5% chance overall
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100 Human Paladin
aus
18305
Was debating on dipping toes back into raiding again but seeing guilds struggle on NORMALS doesn't bode well to me. It just irks me with the stink of "suck". Heroic raiding was supposed to be the hard one I thought? 10 normal used to be a cakewalk.


Not the really on topic, But 10 man asked repeatedly and at great length for loot ilvl and difficulty comparable to 25 man. They got it, personally I think its caused a lot more issues then it solved buts its far too late to go back.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
17615
Was debating on dipping toes back into raiding again but seeing guilds struggle on NORMALS doesn't bode well to me. It just irks me with the stink of "suck". Heroic raiding was supposed to be the hard one I thought? 10 normal used to be a cakewalk.


Lei Shen is about on par with Lich King as far as difficulty, I think he has more mechanics overall, but Arthas was a much less forgiving boss, as 1 bad defile was often a very fast wipe.

I don't think it's fair to say everyone sucks if they havent cleared normal, it's just that ICC had the 5%+ nerfs hitting it very fast and way too soon, that you did indeed suck if you didnt have a clear by week 7(?) because you had 10% buffs by then.

The bosses leading up, are weaker than ICC's, as you can't tell me anything in normal TOT is too mechanically difficult, Animus took a couple pulls to get the original idea of, primordius, I still don' know 3/4's of his mechanics because of how negligible they are, even at the "appropriate" level (which is rated higher than half heroic tier 14, which is a bit higher than we hit him at), Twins being a 1 shot, Durumu taking a dozen attempts of "video settings" adjustments before the fix, etc.

The usual suspects saying people suck, are usually the LFR crowd trying to get nerfs because they indeed are the one's who suck (Sarosha being infamous for insulting casuals' intelligence a hundred times, dragging the term through the badual mud). Generally speaking, I'd almost say the normal community is more helpful now than the ICC days, although Gearscore elitism is still there, just in the form of Ilevel instead (LFM normal MSV 500+ ILEVEL ONLY... aka 5600+ GS ONLY ICC NORMAL 10 MAN)

I wouldnt even say groups are struggling, so much as working through, 12 bosses is quite a few to get by, killing 1 boss a week, and not counting the pushovers like Jinrokh and Twins, you'd be seeing lei shen about now, and lei shen is quite a step up from any foes before him, so giving a 'normal' guild 10 weeks to clear, seems pretty standard.... as many have said, if normal mode guilds clear normal in less than 10 weeks, how is a tier supposed to last ~20 weeks that they seem to be designing this expansion's content towards?

On topic, 25 man raider who used a 2 hander from a 5 man until heroic sha progression
Edited by Azane on 5/9/2013 3:03 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
11580
Was debating on dipping toes back into raiding again but seeing guilds struggle on NORMALS doesn't bode well to me. It just irks me with the stink of "suck". Heroic raiding was supposed to be the hard one I thought? 10 normal used to be a cakewalk


Normal is all about learning the mechanics. Once you do, the fights (I've found so far) then seem fairly easy. So far, the only boss we really struggled on was Durumu and it wasn't even really due to mechanics, rather it was low dps and hitting enrage. We then one-shot Primordius <.<

Depends how much you put into it. We only raid 4-6 hours per week and have been suffering from RL woes. Otherwise, we'd be a lot further into content.
Edited by Sherbear on 5/9/2013 3:35 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
12095
3 Dark Animus kills, 1 of each tier chest and 3 !@#$ty tank trinkets. daaaaaa faaaaack 10 man?
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100 Pandaren Priest
15660
I think the large loot tables is also Blizzard's attempt to squash BiS obsession. When players get a legitimate upgrade and then complain that it isn't the specific one they wanted, Blizzard can't call them out for being ridiculously petty and demanding (they are though). What they can do is inflate the loot tables so that there's obviously a small chance of getting that one specific item.

I'd still like the loot system to at least partially consider the classes present and reduce the drops of stuff that's clearly unusable, in both 10 and 25. I don't mean exclude them completely, just cut those drop chances by 1/3 or 1/2. It shouldn't be enough that you *want* to stack certain classes.
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98 Worgen Mage
17455
05/10/2013 09:38 AMPosted by Breathkeeper
I think the large loot tables is also Blizzard's attempt to squash BiS obsession


IMO I think they wanted to do that too with the 5.1 VP system. They don't want us to get full BiS so we always have something to look forward to. I guess any of the guilds that are killing Ra-Den now will be able to pull it off despite the existence of Thunderforged (he drops all TF gear with extra sockets)
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90 Undead Warlock
9320
using a token system like toc removes too much RNG. It effectively places a finite date on farming for each group with no variance. It was also the worst raiding tier in wow's history. Not really something they'd like to repeat.
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90 Troll Druid
14480
I know we enjoyed disenchanting the Thunderforged crossbow from Durumu. >.>
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90 Human Warlock
16820


Basically, 10 mans have the loot issues, but convenience of size and ease of organisation.

25s have the problems inherent in organising a large group and an easier time gearing.


This is an interesting point.

In the ten man situation you have a burden that effects the many(whole raid team) for a perk that effects the few(leaders of guild) that deal with the logistics.

And then in 25 man, the opposite happens a perk that effects many, with a burden that effects a few.

And if this is so, why would 25 mans be dying? Blizzard has said many times their numbers show players will gravitate towards and choose the most efficient path.

Clearly for the bulk of raiders(not the guild/raid leaders), the most efficient path to gear progression is 25 mans, and if players choose that type of path often, why are more not choosing 25s?

Personally, I've always felt that gear or any incentive/reward, is the most insignificant of reasons to why 25s are dying.
Edited by Brugavino on 5/10/2013 4:45 PM PDT
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