The new Orc Chieftain.

90 Dwarf Priest
10685
Know what the last Alliance-aligned or Formerly-Alliance-aligned loss to the evil bin was?


Archbishop Benedictus comes to mind. And since you seem to be relying on people who were Alliance or Horde in the RTS series, both Illidan and Kael'thas would seem to qualify as well. That's not a "free gimme." After all, it's not like most of the old Horde would have logically been pretty cool with Thrall's take on the matter.

Sylvanas herself is of the Old Alliance as well.
Edited by Fifira on 5/12/2013 11:49 AM PDT
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90 Human Warlock
8315
Archbishop Benedictus comes to mind


Granted and noted. Was a rather stupid turn too.. no foreshadowing whatsoever. Pointless, really. Could've been done much better if necessary, or could've just not been done at all.

Saying Sylvanas is old Alliance doesn't count because Sylvanas isn't a raidboss. She doesn't drop loot/money. Every single Horde listing I have in my other post? Either Can or Could be killed for loot.

Illidan doesn't really count, but I threw him in as a gimmie. His membership into the "STAB ME FOR CLOTHES" club was finalized before the Night Elves formally joined the Alliance.

Kael'thas doesn't count because he split with Silvermoon and headed for Outland before Lor'themar engaged and joined the Horde. I'd toyed with adding Kael'thas to this list as well but opted not to for this reason.

Yes, you read that properly. I padded the Alliance list with two extra names while cutting one that could be included in the Horde list for the same reason.
Edited by Maênad on 5/12/2013 12:00 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Hunter
17875
Know what the last Alliance-aligned or Formerly-Alliance-aligned loss to the evil bin was?


Archbishop Benedictus comes to mind.


Blizz doing the Alliance content first worked in Horde's favor on that one as they were supposed to fight Rommath but instead got a copy/paste Benedictus.
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90 Human Warlock
8315


Archbishop Benedictus comes to mind.


Blizz doing the Alliance content first worked in Horde's favor on that one as they were supposed to fight Rommath but instead got a copy/paste Benedictus.


Rommath turning to the Twilight's Hammer would've been just as stupid as Benedictus doing so was.

Neither one of them had said more than 10 words since their introductions. To suddenly have them go "LOLEVIL!" and evilly frolick their way to the Dragonblight to audition as 5 man heroic bosses evokes billions and billions of WAT.

Nonetheless, Benedictus drops loot, and therefore qualifies and is now included in the padded Alliance list.
Edited by Maênad on 5/12/2013 12:04 PM PDT
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People want him to be punished for a mistake that made his horde spiral down the chaotic path that the old horde once did(and here's the kicker) without the need for demon's blood.


You mean when Deathwing was going to destroy the planet, and Thrall had to abdicate leadership to save the entire planet?

What a bastard move on Thrall's part! He, his wife, and child should all be punished!


I'm not blaming him for putting someone in charge in his absence. it needed to be done. I'm blaming him for putting GARROSH in charge in his absence.

Think about it: He needed a replacement to go save the world. It was only temporary. So, who would he pick?

Eitrigg?

Sourfang? Sure he's old, but it's just a temporary gig until Thrall returns. He could do that, surely.

Nope. Instead, he chooses the guy that tells him straight up in face that he's not ready for such a position.

He picked someone to be acting Warchief that wasn't ready for it, whilst having better alternatives.

05/12/2013 03:12 AMPosted by Shmala
That's why people, as well as myself, want to see Thrall receive some form of punishment. Because we believe that some of the blood Garrosh spilt (We're talking horde blood here as well) is also on Thrall's hands for giving Garrosh the power to spill it in the first place.
And what people constantly fail to realize-No, blatantly IGNORE is that Garrosh is the one who FAILED TO USE THE POWER GIVEN TO HIM PROPERLY.

If Garrosh wasn't a tol of convenience for the plot and turned out an A-Ok warcheif, people wouldn't be patting Thrall on the back, they would be going "Hey, Garrosh is a pretty cool guy."

Why then does Thrall have any accountability for when Garrosh fell short and instead of being a Warcheif ended up a Tyrant?

Because he isn't. Garrosh's failings are his, and his alone. Anything-ANYTHING eles. is people reaching for reasons to hate Thrall.

The sheer length this farce has endured is infuriating. Thrall already lost his best friend, and if he doesn't swoop in to stop garrosh, will very well lose the soul of the people he tried to save. What more consequence can you possibly attribute to him that isn't just pandering to players wanting to see him taken down a notch?


I don't ignore that AT ALL. And neither has Blizzard, Which is why Garrosh is getting his punishment. Thrall on the other hand, is a different story. Garrosh told Thrall he wasn't ready, yet he still insisted, and we're suffering for it.

I'm not asking for something brutal. I'm not asking for an execution, or, as someone else mentioned, a gutting and a public shaming to his family. (YEESH!) I'm thinking something like having his Horde citizenship revoked. Imagine that, exiled from the very civilization he helped build, because his decision to put Garrosh in charge against the better judgement of even Garrosh himself almost tore it down.

Or, at the very least, not permitted to having any official say in Horde politics.

Anything-ANYTHING eles. is people reaching for reasons to hate Thrall.


As a fan of Thrall, I resent that. There's a reason why I'm a Pandaren, a Neutral race, and that's because I believe the horde/Alliance war is really ridiculous, with every expansion having a more and more Convoluted reason to continue it for (What I would imagine to be) game mechanic's sake, and I'm like that because of Thrall.

Believe it or not, there isn't any kind secret conspiracy or animosity for the guy, I just truly believe he should be punished in some official way for making such a huge mistake.
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05/12/2013 03:12 AMPosted by Shmala
That's why people, as well as myself, want to see Thrall receive some form of punishment. Because we believe that some of the blood Garrosh spilt (We're talking horde blood here as well) is also on Thrall's hands for giving Garrosh the power to spill it in the first place.
And what people constantly fail to realize-No, blatantly IGNORE is that Garrosh is the one who FAILED TO USE THE POWER GIVEN TO HIM PROPERLY.

If Garrosh wasn't a tol of convenience for the plot and turned out an A-Ok warcheif, people wouldn't be patting Thrall on the back, they would be going "Hey, Garrosh is a pretty cool guy."

Why then does Thrall have any accountability for when Garrosh fell short and instead of being a Warcheif ended up a Tyrant?

Because he isn't. Garrosh's failings are his, and his alone. Anything-ANYTHING eles. is people reaching for reasons to hate Thrall.

The sheer length this farce has endured is infuriating. Thrall already lost his best friend, and if he doesn't swoop in to stop garrosh, will very well lose the soul of the people he tried to save. What more consequence can you possibly attribute to him that isn't just pandering to players wanting to see him taken down a notch?


If I give someone known for drunk driving my car keys, and then that person drunkenly crashes my car into an orphanage, should I not bear at least some of the blame? Not as much as the person why actually smashed into the orphanage certainly, but I should of known the guy would not be responsible with my vehicle and I am indirectly responsible for what he did with it.

Thrall gave the reigns of one of the most powerful forces on Azeroth to someone who had not yet proven he could be responsible with such power. Remember Garrosh's overly aggressive tendencies and poor diplomatic skills were already well-known when he was appointed Warchief, so even if he hadn't really crossed the moral event horizon just yet Thrall should of known better.

Thrall had one job when it came to appointing the next Warchief, be a good judge of character, and he failed at that job. With all the death and destruction that have been caused by Garrosh's hand, Thrall needs to pay some sort of penance. This could be as simple as passing on reclaiming the title of Warchief, and instead giving it to one who saw exactly what Garrosh was before most were willing to.
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90 Dwarf Priest
10685
Calling for penance on Thrall will only be due if Thrall becomes Warchief again - and Blizzard got the idea from the outcry, so I doubt that will be a thing. Garrosh is not a child, Garrosh is older than Thrall, slightly. Thrall made a really bad call, but he has no moral guilt for his choice. The weight of his own actions rests on Garrosh.
Edited by Fifira on 5/12/2013 12:08 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
10565
I think you mean presence, not ability, unless you are even more presumptuous that I had thought.

You are looking at everything and going. "Look at all these bad things that has happened! Clearly Blizzard does not favour us!"

'Things' is the key word here. Story is happening to you. All over the place. And that is the point of a story.

I could go on at length about the differences between Horde and Alliance questing, but I will merely touch upon a few larger points. In Horde questing, you, as a player, matter. You see your choices changing the world. You are a leader, a co conspirator, a hero. You are involved.

As Alliance? You are irrelevant. Your efforts do not change the world. You do not matter. You are a lackey, a squire, a tagalong helper. You are divorced from the story.

Hero factory? Only for Horde.

Blizzard does favour the Horde, in that they spend time trying to make them interesting, and are therefore interested in them, leading them to try and make them more interesting, leading to a circle of self sustaining content. They are not interested in the Alliance. It just doesn't click with them anymore, so they chose not to engage in it. That is the sum of it. The Horde is 'cooler', and so continues to grow in 'coolness', while the Alliance stagnates.

Also, in particular:

Know what the last Alliance-aligned or Formerly-Alliance-aligned loss to the evil bin was?


Not set that side by side with what forces, figures and nations the Alliance has lost, period, and you may get a clearer picture. If we are taking a cheerleader's perspective on which losses are automatically bad things for us personally, then it really doesn't matter how they are lost.

Ner'zhul is yet another 'fallen' former Hordemember that was beaten mercilessly with the evil stick. Hell they beat him with it so hard that he was Ner'zhul in name only. His incarnation as the Lich King Pre-Arthas literally had zero in common with his orcish persona. The lore on the LK's creation in the RoC manual literally says the Orc known as Ner'zhul ceased to be.


To note, he was full on evil long before he died. He stopped caring about the Horde when he started gaining power again with the second opening of the Portal, and the theft of the magic artifacts.

The entirety of the Draenor Horde (Bonechewer, Thunderlord, Shadowmoon, Shattered Hand, Bleeding Hollow and Laughing Skull clans. The current 'Shattered hand' in Orgrimmar is basically name-only.. no real significant ties to the Draenor clan outside of the name and maybe a few nameless members.)


You do realize that was because Thrall disbanded the clans, not because they weren't in his Horde.

That's it. Find me another major lore figure that was turned evil or even evilISH from Alliance membership. Please, be my guest. I'll even give you Maiev Shadowsong, even though she not only wasn't a raidboss.. she was a boss MECHANIC against Illidan. Not even evil, still helps you.. and I'll give you her anyway.


I take it you haven't read Wolfheart, where she turns on the Night Elves.

There are others, like Kel'Thuzad, for the past, and Benedictus, for more recent times.

Thanks for playing, squidface.


See this one coming?
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I would like to highlight a certain part in Falrinn's post.

With all the death and destruction that have been caused by Garrosh's hand, Thrall needs to pay some sort of penance. This could be as simple as passing on reclaiming the title of Warchief, and instead giving it to one who saw exactly what Garrosh was before most were willing to.


In my opinion, that should do just fine.
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90 Human Warlock
8315

I'm not blaming him for putting someone in charge in his absence. it needed to be done. I'm blaming him for putting GARROSH in charge in his absence.

Think about it: He needed a replacement to go save the world. It was only temporary. So, who would he pick?

Eitrigg?

Sourfang? Sure he's old, but it's just a temporary gig until Thrall returns. He could do that, surely.

Nope. Instead, he chooses the guy that tells him straight up in face that he's not ready for such a position.

He picked someone to be acting Warchief that wasn't ready for it, whilst having better alternatives.


Eitrigg didn't have the name recognition or experience to handle the position. Advisor? Sure. Head honcho? Nope.jpg

Saurfang sr was a broken shell of a grieving father when Cataclysm started. The ashes of his zombified son hadn't even settled when Thrall had to go off and bandaid the world back together.

His son, by the way, was Thrall's first choice as his successor, and we would've had Warchief Dranosh Saurfang if he had survived the Northrend campaign.

Garrosh was the only potential candidate left. Wasn't picked because he was the best man for the job. He was picked because everyone else was dead or had the emotional stability of a woman whose mother died on her birthday.

I don't ignore that AT ALL. And neither has Blizzard, Which is why Garrosh is getting his punishment. Thrall on the other hand, is a different story. Garrosh told Thrall he wasn't ready, yet he still insisted, and we're suffering for it.

I'm not asking for something brutal. I'm not asking for an execution, or, as someone else mentioned, a gutting and a public shaming to his family. (YEESH!) I'm thinking something like having his Horde citizenship revoked. Imagine that, exiled from the very civilization he helped build, because his decision to put Garrosh in charge against the better judgement of even Garrosh himself almost tore it down.

Or, at the very least, not permitted to having any official say in Horde politics.

Anything-ANYTHING eles. is people reaching for reasons to hate Thrall.


As a fan of Thrall, I resent that. There's a reason why I'm a Pandaren, a Neutral race, and that's because I believe the horde/Alliance war is really ridiculous, with every expansion having a more and more Convoluted reason to continue it for (What I would imagine to be) game mechanic's sake, and I'm like that because of Thrall.

Believe it or not, there isn't any kind secret conspiracy or animosity for the guy, I just truly believe he should be punished in some official way for making such a huge mistake.


Thrall believed Garrosh was ready because if you hadn't noticed, throughout all WotLk, everywhere Thrall went, anything Thrall did.. Garrosh was at his side the entire time. Thrall was grooming Garrosh to be a potential successor because he WAS a potential successor. He had to focus on Garrosh exclusively after the Wrathgate because Thrall's #1 candidate for his successor as Warchief was off being reoriginated into an undead loot pinata in ICC.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10565
His son, by the way, was Thrall's first choice as his successor, and we would've had Warchief Dranosh Saurfang if he had survived the Northrend campaign.


So, it Eitrigg didn't have the experience, why would Draenosh?
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85 Gnome Mage
8515
05/12/2013 12:24 PMPosted by Arkturas
His son, by the way, was Thrall's first choice as his successor, and we would've had Warchief Dranosh Saurfang if he had survived the Northrend campaign.


So, it Eitrigg didn't have the experience, why would Draenosh?


In interest of lowering animosity, I think she's giving the younger characters a pass but a higher bar for older ones. Which is often how it works when picking a successor.

Long time, no see, Arkturas; never expected to see you in TWC. :)
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90 Draenei Paladin
10565
Indeed it has been a long time Aestaela. :) How goes?

And somehow I ended up leading this motley crew >.>
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90 Human Warlock
8315
To note, he was full on evil long before he died. He stopped caring about the Horde when he started gaining power again with the second opening of the Portal, and the theft of the magic artifacts.


Go read Rise of the Horde.

You do realize that was because Thrall disbanded the clans, not because they weren't in his Horde.


Wrong. Those clans were trapped on the Draenor side of the portal and were converted to Fel Horde when Magtheridon took up residence in Outland. The Mag'har were the only exception.. they were the only Orcs not to become cannon fodder on Draenor.

I take it you haven't read Wolfheart, where she turns on the Night Elves.

There are others, like Kel'Thuzad, for the past, and Benedictus, for more recent times.


Maiev isn't a loot cow, that's the commonality. I added her as padding.

Kel'thuzad also counts. Noted.
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90 Tauren Death Knight
16350
Thrall gave the reigns of one of the most powerful forces on Azeroth to someone who had not yet proven he could be responsible with such power. Remember Garrosh's overly aggressive tendencies and poor diplomatic skills were already well-known when he was appointed Warchief, so even if he hadn't really crossed the moral event horizon just yet Thrall should of known better.
And yet he had no other alternative.

No one else was up to par, and those that were were dead. He wasn't chosen because he was the best choice, he was chosen because he was the only choice Thrall had.

Not to menton during Cataclysm they were trying to make him a more palatable character as a Warcheif, becaues His dislike among the Horde base was already well telegrapehd the minute he was announced as being the successor.

Garrosh was grossly mishandled as a character, he swung back and forth on his moral compass many times to suit the needs of the writers, and is franky just a train wreck. I have tried so hard to like the charavter, but after soo many off-screen Face-heel-turns it's stupid that peoplet hink Thrall should be the one to foot the bill for that character's stupidity, or more accurately, terrible handling.

Again, when he was made warchief, he was being put down the path of Quasi-Saurfang. One showing his old flaws, but with promising developments with his outlook. Then in Mists he got villain batted into the gutter so hard it snapped in half.

To contnue the Drunk Driving analony, he was a Drunk diver, but then he started going to AA meetings and started drinking coffee instead. Then Thrall gave him the keys...and then somewhere down the line he got T Boned by a Kokanee shipment that splashed all over his face and now we're not only back to square one, but negative three.
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85 Gnome Mage
8515
Indeed it has been a long time Aestaela. :) How goes?

And somehow I ended up leading this motley crew >.>


So now I'm a gamer (is Fifira) who rarely RPs (little time when I'm done doing everything else), and you're leading the guild that was in large part a successor to my old RP Guild. Surreal.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10565
Go read Rise of the Horde.


Done. Go read Beyond the Dark Portal.

Maiev isn't a loot cow, that's the commonality. I added her as padding.


We are talking story, not PvE. Why should loot status matter? And if loot status is so important, does that mean since none of your aforementioned characters are in a riad, they are less important than the raid bosses, who are by and large Alliance?

Wrong. Those clans were trapped on the Draenor side of the portal and were converted to Fel Horde when Magtheridon took up residence in Outland. The Mag'har were the only exception.. they were the only Orcs not to become cannon fodder on Draenor.


Not wholly. The Shattered Hand had some trapped on Azeroth in the Internment Camps. I had thought the Bleeding Hollow had as well, since they had fought in the first and Second wars, but it seems that Ner'zhul helped them escape. And interestingly enough, Ner'zhul attacked both the Thunderlord and Bonechewer clans sometime after the Portal was first closed.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10565
So now I'm a gamer (is Fifira) who rarely RPs (little time when I'm done doing everything else), and you're leading the guild that was in large part a successor to my old RP Guild. Surreal.


Funny world sometimes. If you're looking to RP some though, give the guild a poke. :)
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