Scatter / Trap -Returned

90 Blood Elf Hunter
12240
Just tweeted (Holinka) a little while ago :-) ..

Yes scatter/trap back to old DR, pet CC cooldowns increased. 30% special ability CD reduction gone from BM
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90 Goblin Hunter
7715
Just saw this myself.

Very nice, much better fix.
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100 Troll Hunter
17720
Just saw this myself.

Very nice, much better fix.

Yep, obviously much better to gut any semblance of uniqueness in pets between specs, rather than just nerfing a couple specific ones.

Longevity wasn't the problem. Heck, Shale Stun wasn't even a problem, it was balanced very closely to every other stun out there (10 sec CD per second of Stun. Fist of Justice as a talent breaks that, and while Shockwave is a talent on that same scale, it is also AOE and brings damage).

But, if they wanted to make the CDs not line up as well, bump the base time to 60 seconds (~42 sec CD for BM), and make it a 4 sec stun.

Or, bump it to 90 sec CD (~63 sec CD for BM), and make it a 6 sec stun.

But no...pet CC abilities can't compare to player abilities...that would break everything.

Main difference between pet vs player?
Pet is a different source. Meaning it can die separately (and easier). The gain is, it is a separate source, prevention is trickier than simply CC-ing the player.

Edit: They could have made Longevity only apply to Family abilities (rather than spec abilities), if Roar and similar was an issue.

Edit: And I am glad that Scatter+Trap isn't being broken. Glad in the way that I avoided breaking a leg, by landing on my hand and breaking my fingers kind of way. Would really have preferred not being toss off a building, stairs were made for a reason...
Edited by Verdash on 5/6/2013 11:17 AM PDT
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90 Human Hunter
3935
Just saw this myself.

Very nice, much better fix.


Agreed. A hunter will still feel like a hunter. Really wouldn't have without scatter trapping.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
8065
HUZZAH!!
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Anyone have a link to the the change we are getting instead of scatter dr'ing trap
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90 Goblin Hunter
7715
Yep, obviously much better to gut any semblance of uniqueness in pets between specs, rather than just nerfing a couple specific ones.


Uniqueness like having access to Exotic Pets?

Or Kill Command, Beast Cleave, Focus Fire / Frenzy, and of course TBW?

That kind of uniqueness between specs?

I'll admit that Hunters could use a lot more love to make the specs feel different, but taking away BM's lowered pet ability cds doesn't make me feel nearly as bitter as you seem to.

Hunter CC was a problem, and I'd much rather see the "new kid on the block" take a hit than an old staple of the class, like Scatter / Trapping.
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100 Troll Hunter
17720
Uniqueness like having access to Exotic Pets?

What is the difference between a BM Spider, and a MM Spider? Saying "Exotic Pets" simply means BM is more limited than MM/SV when it comes to pet selection, as anything other than an Exotic is a waste.

Or Kill Command, Beast Cleave, Focus Fire / Frenzy, and of course TBW?

Those are all hunter abilities, not pet abilities.

I'll admit that Hunters could use a lot more love to make the specs feel different, but taking away BM's lowered pet ability cds doesn't make me feel nearly as bitter as you seem to.

Mostly because it breaks any shred of usefulness some abilities had (i.e. the pet interrupts). Its a sledgehammer fix, when only a select few abilities (see Shale Stun above, as well as spec specific, again above) really needed a tweaking.

Hunter CC was a problem, and I'd much rather see the "new kid on the block" take a hit than an old staple of the class, like Scatter / Trapping.

Pet CC has existed just as long as Scatter/Trapping. Both were added to the class in the WotLK era (in TBC, Scatter was a spec ability, and Trap Launcher didn't exist).

While I am glad they are leaving Scatter+Trap alone, it would be nice if they stopped treating pets as after thoughts, and actually took the time to balance the stuff properly.

Who would take a 2 sec stun on a 1 min CD? 42 seconds was already weak, even if it was ranged. 2 sec melee range interrupt on a 30 sec CD?

This is my issue. If they are going to remove Longevity, several pet abilities need to have their CDs redesigned to actually reflect their effects. Instead, to fix a couple, we gut the rest.
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90 Goblin Hunter
7715
Those are all hunter abilities, not pet abilities.


Your pet doesn't suddenly become different because you spec'd BM. You simply control them better.

The differences between a BM spider and a MM spider *should* be the amount of control coming from the Hunter themselves, not a magical "enhanced" version of the pet. That's what Exotics are for.

I'd say a faster attack speed, commanding them to attack harder, causing them to attack a wider area, and making them more powerful set them apart from a MM's ability to control the same spider.

/shrug

This is my issue. If they are going to remove Longevity, several pet abilities need to have their CDs redesigned to actually reflect their effects. Instead, to fix a couple, we gut the rest.


I'm not sure which specific abilities you mean, but:

"Holinka
We reduced the cooldowns of pet abilities with PvE implications."
Edited by Triggers on 5/6/2013 12:02 PM PDT
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100 Troll Hunter
17720
I am willing to grant that a BM spider being more effective than a MM spider (once you disregard hunter specific mechanics) is more of a opinionated stance, that still doesn't address the issue that several pet mechanics are going to be simply useless now. Longevity was the only thing giving them anything close to a reasonable level of effectiveness.

And if Blizz would be bothered enough to fix them, then they could be bothered to simply limit the Scope of Longevity (i.e. not Specialization abilities), and fix the one or two problem abilities, instead of removing it.
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100 Troll Hunter
17720
I'm not sure which specific abilities you mean, but:

"Holinka
We reduced the cooldowns of pet abilities with PvE implications."

Hmm, I didn't see that one. Maybe they are already working on the issue I have with this change (prime examples are Pummel, Nether Shock, and Bat Stun - all using their base cooldowns are severely weak compared to other abilities that have a similar effect).

Pummel: 2 sec Int, 30 sec CD (as opposed to 4 Int 15 CD)
Nether Shock: 2 sec Int, 40 sec CD (as opposed to a 4-6 Int, 24-ish sec CD)
Sonic Blast: 2 sec Stun, 60 sec CD (as opposed to 6 sec Stun, 60 sec CD)

etc
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100 Dwarf Hunter
11865
Awesome, the nerf bat still swinging wild, I was thinking they would just nerf shale spider stun cooldown and web from silithilds and spiders, but they went full retard again, why nerf specific CC, that's seems like to much work and a logical course of action, lets just swing the nerf bat to all special abilities, because f.. u that's why, got to love blizz, I don't even get mad anymore. I am happy they reverted the scatter trap change tough, I really love scatter trapping people.

But we got 50 stable slots whats not to love from 5.3 happy times people!
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90 Troll Hunter
2500
What is the point of nerfing pet CC. Is that no the point the pet they bring different stuff.
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90 Human Hunter
8010
What is the point of nerfing pet CC. Is that no the point the pet they bring different stuff.

the point of nerfing pet CC is that they wanted to nerf hunter CC. they picked scatter. we protested so they moved the nerf to pet CC instead.
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100 Troll Hunter
17720
05/06/2013 01:03 PMPosted by Upfrontmeat
What is the point of nerfing pet CC. Is that no the point the pet they bring different stuff.

the point of nerfing pet CC is that they wanted to nerf hunter CC. they picked scatter. we protested so they moved the nerf to pet CC instead.

Which is a fine choice, but in the process, they nerfed non-CC abilities too, but it does appear they are addressing this.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
13515
PVE abilities had cds shortened to compensate, but others weren't.
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90 Human Hunter
8010
PVE abilities had cds shortened to compensate, but others weren't.

yeah, what qualifies as a PVE ability? i'm assuming ones that affect DPS like rabid/furious howl and not roar of sac, but what about... i dunno....... spirit mend and turtle shield?
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100 Troll Hunter
17720
05/06/2013 01:27 PMPosted by Upfrontmeat
PVE abilities had cds shortened to compensate, but others weren't.

yeah, what qualifies as a PVE ability? i'm assuming ones that affect DPS like rabid/furious howl and not roar of sac, but what about... i dunno....... spirit mend and turtle shield?

And why shouldn't some PVP ones (Pummel for instance, or even Sonic Blast) get some love?

The ability is gimp as MM/SV, it is still gimp even with Longevity affecting it. They want to make Tier 30 more of a choice? Then make Gorrila's/Nether Rays more of a choice.

They want the loss of Intimidation to not be a huge blow to BM, without leaving MM/SV behind (the spec difference was the issue here, from what I can tell)? Then make Bat Stuns comparable to Shale Spider's stun (both of which are weak without Longevity affecting them, and in Bat's case weak even with Longevity).
Edited by Verdash on 5/6/2013 1:37 PM PDT
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77 Troll Hunter
7955
05/06/2013 01:27 PMPosted by Upfrontmeat
PVE abilities had cds shortened to compensate, but others weren't.

yeah, what qualifies as a PVE ability? i'm assuming ones that affect DPS like rabid/furious howl and not roar of sac, but what about... i dunno....... spirit mend and turtle shield?


Maybe instead of 30% special ability reduction they changed it to 30% basic attacks.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
22015
If they haven't reduced the cooldown on all debuffs, Rabid, Ancient Hysteria (or actually made its cooldown reset on wipe), Burrow, and Frost Breath, then it's a damage nerf in PvE.

And there's a lot more that need cooldown reductions to not be an even-more-severe utility/survivability PvE nerf (i.e., Spirit Mend, interrupts, etc.). And several more to not be a soloing PvE nerf (i.e., Thunderstomp, Last Stand, Growl, Cower, Shell Shield, etc.).

So I hope they got everything, or else I'll be making a few lists for the PTR forum. And suggesting they finish the duration/cooldown fixes they 'said' they did back in Mists beta (aside from the massive list of abilities they just never did that on).
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