Boomkin PVP damage

So I got all my PVP gear last week, tried multiple gemming combinations and found that just going straight up all crit is the best way. I'm having a EXTREMELY hard time killing stuff I mean rogues spamming shuriken toss do more damage than I do.

I get star surge procs quite often since I am gemmed for crit, but they hit for like 30-40 k on geared targets, crit for 70-80k. What I don't get is how am I supposed to kill people like this? It's just so RnG what do I do in the meantime just spam eclipse DoT on target? I just don't see the point in playing boomkin when starsurge is like a mages ice lance proc which they get ALL The time with frost fire bolt on top of that.

And please don't tell me to gem resil I'm quite capable of not dying without it even though I get focused ALL the damn time since I switched to alliance I have no clue why. I know reckful said it was best to gem resil but I don't do 3s or 5s or RBGs right now. My main problem is dealing damage OUTSIDE of cooldowns.

Oh and saying "DUDE r u crazy luuk at how much damage boomkeens doo on the damage done charts in BGs man they get lyke top damage all the TYME mang" I mean it's nice to get top damage but when it comes from putting your eclipse DoT on EVERYTHING it's not all that satisfying.
Edited by Çelestîä on 5/4/2013 8:51 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
14580
Welcome to the 3min wonder specc!
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90 Troll Druid
9505
My main problem is dealing damage OUTSIDE of cooldowns.


That's exactly the problem. Most of the balance druids that read this forum hate the idea of controllable damage, and usually will shut you down with either: "Will break PvE" or "I liek random damage". You are right though, mages get a very similar mechanic to our shooting stars. Difference is they have that proc factor, plus a way to do substantial controlled damage without it.

Incarnation and CD stacking in general was one of the biggest downfalls of the spec. In cata you could effectively kill players by actually setting up damage, without that crit reliance that you see now. The classes that have the capability to set up damage combined with some other sort of utility or extra damage (such as spriest/mage) are prime examples of working casters that can contribute damage inside kills windows, and ultimately finish targets.
Edited by Idiotverze on 5/4/2013 9:06 PM PDT
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Yeah it's stupid.. I mean I was doing 2s with a disc priest the other day and everything was going just awful. The only time I would win is when I could get both DPS or DPS/healer inside of a beam vortex and successfully kill them with my CDs popped.

The most embarrassing part of this was when we went up against a warrior and DK. I killed the DK and when I switched to the warr I honestly couldn't out DPS his second wind I was getting 1 random SS proc like every 30 seconds. I had to wait 3 minutes for myu CDS to burst through his second wind -.-
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And why the hell is it that EVERY TIME someone sees my they IMMEDIATELY stop attacking what they are trying to kill and just chase me around for 3 minutes? I mean wtf is up with that everything I see just wants to murder me all the damn time. I know it sounds dumb to complain about this but it's just unnatural EVERYONE wants to kill me it's like they think I'm a healer or something.

And the really funny part is usually none of them do kill me unless it's a hunter or warlock that just fears me two times in a row and it hits me for 150k twice with CB. I just shapeshift and displacer beast away but poeple sthill chase me for the whole damn BG. I don't know if it;s because I switched to alliance or something and I lose virtually every BG I do now I don't know why things are this way but it's so damn frustrating -.- Is this punishment for spending 120$ transfering all my 90s over ~.~
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90 Troll Druid
9505
because moon guard
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because moon guard


This doesn't happen on any of my other characters so I doubt that

SO I'm almost 100% sure I just figured it out. I think the reason I get focused by EVERYTHING is because of the big ominous blinding beam of light I have to drop on multiple targets to do damage. I noticed in the BG I did 5 mins ago most of the melee would switch to me when they saw me hit them with sunfire/moonfire.
Edited by Çelestîä on 5/4/2013 9:52 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
14580
05/04/2013 09:27 PMPosted by Çelestîä
And why the hell is it that EVERY TIME someone sees my they IMMEDIATELY stop attacking what they are trying to kill and just chase me around for 3 minutes?

Because you deal no damage while moving
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90 Night Elf Druid
13740
For starters, just looking at your stats ... i'd say gem more power if you feel like you're lacking in damage. I don't know how much longer power will really help with damage, considering the pvp changes happening in 5.3 -- but as of right now, power has helped me out a ton.

Resil is not the issue here (I actually have less resil than you) but, you have to play defensively. I don't know how you are playing right now but, the key is to lie low. Stick in the back, hope to god you have healers or queue with healers and have someone following you at all times. If someone is focusing you, DB and get away/out of combat and try to re-stealth.

If melee are sticking on you, get them in roots and get away. Trash Renewal and get Nature's Swiftness for instant clones -- they'll save your life. Plus, Instant HT is useful during combat.

Having a massive amount of crit is not always the answer in pvp. Granted, theres a lot of ways to play a moonkin in pvp but, this way has worked wonders for me. You'll have a ton of crit from reforges and enough to proc Starsurge quite often (as long as you're rolling dots on everything).

I usually have 100-150k SS crits but i've hit people for 300-400k crits before.

And i've played Alliance and Horde, recently xferred back to Ally and Ally seems to have a lot more trouble in bgs. Less premades on the Ally side, Horde LOVE doing premades with OQ.

But theres some information to start you off, hope it helps!
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05/04/2013 10:16 PMPosted by Bawk
For starters, just looking at your stats ... i'd say gem more power if you feel like you're lacking in damage. I don't know how much longer power will really help with damage, considering the pvp changes happening in 5.3 -- but as of right now, power has helped me out a ton.


I was gemmed all out PVP power at one point. 13-15% more damage won't solve my problem.

05/04/2013 10:16 PMPosted by Bawk
Resil is not the issue here (I actually have less resil than you) but, you have to play defensively. I don't know how you are playing right now but, the key is to lie low. Stick in the back, hope to god you have healers or queue with healers and have someone following you at all times. If someone is focusing you, DB and get away/out of combat and try to re-stealth.


I spend most of my time playing defensively and kiting melee/ranged and LoSing. It's all I can really do because I get focused so much.

05/04/2013 10:16 PMPosted by Bawk
I usually have 100-150k SS crits but i've hit people for 300-400k crits before.


Me too, on extremely undergeared players carrying orbs in temple.

I appreciate the help and I'll try gemming for PVP power again, but I'm pretty sure I'm just going to go feral.. It sounds super boring though, especially since I already have a rogue with tyranical weapons -.-
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90 Worgen Druid
15035
For starters, just looking at your stats ... i'd say gem more power if you feel like you're lacking in damage. I don't know how much longer power will really help with damage, considering the pvp changes happening in 5.3 -- but as of right now, power has helped me out a ton.


I was gemmed all out PVP power at one point. 13-15% more damage won't solve my problem.


If you gemmed more power and got your tyrannical weapons and put a little more int in your gem sockets, you'd have a lot more spell power, too. Increased SP and PvP Power would exponentially increase your damage.

You have about 3k less spellpower than me. Doesn't seem like much but, that SP makes all the difference. :)

Don't get discouraged though, practice makes perfect. :D

Edit: Whoops my bad, posted on my other boomkin. Still the same person though! lol
Edited by Shikoku on 5/4/2013 10:39 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
9505
05/04/2013 10:38 PMPosted by Shikoku


I was gemmed all out PVP power at one point. 13-15% more damage won't solve my problem.


If you gemmed more power and got your tyrannical weapons and put a little more int in your gem sockets, you'd have a lot more spell power, too. Increased SP and PvP Power would exponentially increase your damage.

You have about 3k less spellpower than me. Doesn't seem like much but, that SP makes all the difference. :)

Don't get discouraged though, practice makes perfect. :D

Edit: Whoops my bad, posted on my other boomkin. Still the same person though! lol


His central point isn't about overall damage, it's about being able to contribute/control damage towards a kill. Nobody really denies how much balance can pad meters. Unlike PvE, it's far from effective contributions.
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90 Troll Druid
7405
I appreciate the help and I'll try gemming for PVP power again


Don't do this. As far as offensive gemming goes, crit is one of the best ways to go about it.

The overall damage increase from gemming pvp power versus gemming crit is very comparable. Crit wins out because it increases your likelihood of getting a starsurge proc when it's most needed, and it also somewhat increases the value of your mastery, as you will not need to apply the same number of dots as someone with less crits to get the same number of starsurge procs - you need only apply the eclipsed ones on everything, rather than eclipsed + uneclipsed one. Also, pvp power gemming is being completely gimped next patch.

The only thing I'd change is gem-wise is going for socket bonuses. Pretty much every single one is good. It would also be better to get the resto helm because of the better stats on it. And you definitely want the on-use trinket. Both have comparable procs and uptimes, so burst you have control over > burst you can't control in every situation.
Edited by Velaniz on 5/4/2013 10:52 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
13740
His central point isn't about overall damage, it's about being able to contribute/control damage towards a kill. Nobody really denies how much balance can pad meters. Unlike PvE, it's far from effective contributions.


Yeah? And increased SP and PvP power should make stronger dots/SS procs.
I have no trouble killing people in bgs or rated pvp. But a boomkin's major focus isn't single target damage. It's overall damage, pressuring entire teams of people and dumping procs into a single target.

Especially in rated bgs, you are contributing by mass aoe. You're doing the damage and pressuring the healers so your lock(s) can get off that killing blow. That is not padding meters, imo.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13740
05/04/2013 10:50 PMPosted by Velaniz
I appreciate the help and I'll try gemming for PVP power again


Don't do this. As far as offensive gemming goes, crit is one of the best ways to go about it.

As I said above, there's a lot of different ways to play a moonkin in pvp. But, crit gemming didn't work as effectively for me so I canned it for the power. In some cases, I did not have dispel protection on some of my teams (because I've been pugging RBGs this entire season, so its not always the same group) so relying on my dots made it feel like I wasn't doing anything some nights.

It's all a matter of preference and play style, there is no concrete way to gem in pvp for a moonkin.
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90 Troll Druid
9505
05/04/2013 10:53 PMPosted by Bawk
His central point isn't about overall damage, it's about being able to contribute/control damage towards a kill. Nobody really denies how much balance can pad meters. Unlike PvE, it's far from effective contributions.


Yeah? And increased SP and PvP power should make stronger dots/SS procs.
I have no trouble killing people in bgs or rated pvp. But a boomkin's major focus isn't single target damage. It's overall damage, pressuring entire teams of people and dumping procs into a single target.

Especially in rated bgs, you are contributing by mass aoe. You're doing the damage and pressuring the healers so your lock(s) can get off that killing blow. That is not padding meters, imo.


I was leaning more to the problems in 3s than large scale fights like RBGs, sorry for not clarifying. Dots aren't going to kill players in a short window(Deep freeze, Kidney, spriest silence etc...). My whole banter is more the fact that we can only assure at most, 1 starsurge proc to specific kill opportunities. Outside of cooldowns my SS lands for about 50-100k depending if it crits. While spriests can set up 3 orb DPS with insanity mind flay damage, and mages can deep and do substantial damage without casting at all.

In no way am I trying to compare to other classes, but the biggest gap between balance druid and other casters is the ability to set up and effectively coordinate & contribute damage with a partner. While we can spread damage to no end, there are specific healer abilities that easily negate that dot damage(PoM, healing stream, Wild growth comes to mind).

The reason affliction locks still work is DoT protection + hindering CC like fear, in which you UA fear someone and force the dispel. Otherwise, that target sits in full CC and allows the lock to rotate fears to 3v2 the enemy team.
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90 Troll Druid
7405
05/04/2013 10:57 PMPosted by Bawk
I did not have dispel protection on some of my teams (because I've been pugging RBGs this entire season, so its not always the same group) so relying on my dots made it feel like I wasn't doing anything some nights.


Reliance on dots isn't specifically a problem you have with gemming crit. The way starsurge works currently, every moonkin build depends on dots in one way or another. One could argue that crit makes you less dot reliant, because you'd only need 3-4 dots rather than 5-6 to get the same starsurge procs as someone who didn't go crit to the same extent as you.

I get where you're coming from with this argument, but people also forget that crit still has alot of use outside of starsurge procs. The moonkin zeitgeist seems to be "pvp power/mastery/spell power = more overall damage, crit = more starsurge damage". Crit would still be a very powerful and relevant stat even if starsurge procs weren't based on crit at all. If you do the math, the value of crit is only marginally below pvp power/mastery if you completely discount the extra starsurge procs. With that taken into account, it easily pulls out far ahead.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13740
05/04/2013 11:25 PMPosted by Velaniz
I did not have dispel protection on some of my teams (because I've been pugging RBGs this entire season, so its not always the same group) so relying on my dots made it feel like I wasn't doing anything some nights.


Reliance on dots isn't specifically a problem you have with gemming crit. The way starsurge works currently, every moonkin build depends on dots in one way or another. One could argue that crit makes you less dot reliant, because you'd only need 3-4 dots rather than 5-6 to get the same starsurge procs as someone who didn't go crit to the same extent as you.

I get where you're coming from with this argument, but people also forget that crit still has alot of use outside of starsurge procs. The moonkin zeitgeist seems to be "pvp power/mastery/spell power = more overall damage, crit = more starsurge damage". Crit would still be a very powerful and relevant stat even if starsurge procs weren't based on crit at all. If you do the math, the value of crit is only marginally below pvp power/mastery if you completely discount the extra starsurge procs. With that taken into account, it easily pulls out far ahead.

But in terms of in an RBG/BG-sense, if you are with your entire group and rolling dots on everyone and say have 10k crit -- you're overlapping and wasting SS procs. Whereas with 6-7k crit, dotting the same amount of players -- you're still proccing plenty of SS but, enough that you aren't wasting nearly as many. Crit is a very good stat but, to an extent. I still argue both gemming methods are very similar in terms of damage. Granted, I'm not sure what your play style is for RBGs but, when I am in RBGs I am double dotting everything in sight and dumping every SS proc into the main target, plus casting wrath/starfire if i'm not being focused. But, ultimately I am brought along because I chain clone everything in sight,sync well with DK target callers for vortex/beams and purge the living daylight out of targets (shaman symbiosis, yay!). The damage output I bring along is just the bonus, I never have trouble keeping up with everyone else anyways.

The only reason I wouldn't completely discount PvP Power just yet is because they're removing resil from the gear and adding more power onto our current gear. That is why there was a nerf to not only the gems but the value of power in general. In 5.3, we should have a lot more power and it should equalize out to the similar values we currently have in place, maybe just slightly lower.

Even come 5.3, I could see good use of split gemming for crit/power just to get higher crit values because of the gear scaling for instanced pvp.
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90 Troll Druid
7405
05/05/2013 12:12 AMPosted by Bawk
But in terms of in an RBG/BG-sense, if you are with your entire group and rolling dots on everyone and say have 10k crit -- you're overlapping and wasting SS procs.


This is true, and certainly not to be discounted in determining the value of crit, but starsurge wastage is something that can happen no matter how little your crit.

Overloading on crit can sometimes make it so you go periods of 5-6 seconds with several wasted starsurge procs you couldn't use, but there will be many more times you can make excellent use of them. There have been several occasions now where I've gotten 3-4 successive starsurges all in a span of a team mate's deepfreeze/counterspell just from having a relatively small amount of dots up (6-7). Starsurge procs also become somewhat consistent, even predictable, after a while.

05/05/2013 12:12 AMPosted by Bawk
. Granted, I'm not sure what your play style is for RBGs but, when I am in RBGs I am double dotting everything in sight and dumping every SS proc into the main target, plus casting wrath/starfire if i'm not being focused.


One more advantage of being crit heavy is I'm able to leave out the uneclipsed dot alot of the time.

In terms of the damage output of starsurge, an eclipsed dot, and an uneclipsed dot on an equally geared opponent, these are the rough figures for me.

Starsurge: 48k
Eclipsed dot with 0 stacks Lunar Shower: 46k (33% less for uneclipsed dot)
Eclipsed dot with 3 stacks Lunar Shower: 51k (33% less for uneclipsed dot)

I think of it this way - essentially, an average eclipsed dot is merely a starsurge over 14 seconds. Just spreading the eclipsed dot and using starsurge, I am able to cause ~ 48k damage every gcd while I'm eclipsed. An uneclipsed dot, however, is a gcd that causes 33% less damage (at my 50% Eclipse bonus damage). It's the exact same multi dotting strat in pve really.

When I'm not getting enough shooting stars, and I already have everything dotted with my Eclipsed dots, I end up having to use gcds on a spell far inferior. With enough crit, however, I can expect to use a spell every gcd that's eclipsed, and does 50% more damage than the inferior version I'd otherwise have been forced to use. Doing this also greatly increases the value of your mastery, simply because you're using mastery buffed spells more. When I'm 1 cast away from leaving Eclipse, I just re-dot everything in sight again for the last time, and use the resulting starsurge torrent to carry me into the next Eclipse.
Edited by Velaniz on 5/5/2013 4:14 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
8205
Reach a haste cap of your choosing(one of them you can reach without trying), reforge crit>mastery and gem crit>int=pvppower.

Dot spread while eclipse is up. Use instant Starsurges on your TC's kill target.
Be ready to Vortex+Beam when your TC calls for it.
Cyclone a Healer right before your TC calls for a hardswitch. Cyclone DPS that are obviously popping CDs. Don't cyclone overextenders. Over-cycloning is bad, only cyclone when you need to.
Don't spend too much time spamming rejuv on your teammates either. If you notice someone being hardswapped and your healers can't keep up, drop a rejuv and go back to your ccing/dpsing.

When you pop CDs, Get your dots on at least 5 different people, cyclone a healer, and spam your starsurge button on the DK's TC. /popcorn.

Boomkins are not the best 1vs1 spec and you should not base the skillcap of this spec off of how it performs 1vs1.

A boomkin's damage is based off of RNG procs from your DoTs. If you want to do more damage, you have to do more dottabbing. You should rarely be using Wrath and Starfire. The only time it's worth doing is when your team is trying to drop a kill on the FC; and that is still situational.

If you don't like the idea of having to dotspread in order to do any real damage, then go make a Lock.

Spam Rain of Fire 24/7 to build 4 embers within seconds, fear a healer, then chaos bolt the TC for 150k.

Sure my starsurges will hit for maybe 100k, but when I get 5 starsurges off in a row on 1 target; that's priceless.
Edited by Çer on 5/5/2013 7:56 AM PDT
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