LFR matching idea to avoid partial-run blues

90 Worgen Druid
13790
I've been thinking about this. I'm making the simplifying assumption that people generally want to do each boss once (sure, there are exceptions, but this is true for the most part).

If a group is waiting at the third boss with a number of gaps, it must be because there were that many players who killed the first 2 bosses and left. So the undersupply of players for 3rd boss comes from oversupply of players for the first 2 bosses.

In fact, in the current system this will perpetuate for the rest of the week like a pyramid scheme - the only way the 3rd boss gets killed is with new players who go directly to third boss and then have to queue again for first 2 bosses.

To solve this, how about sometimes breaking up a group that killed the first 2 bosses and sending them back to the start?

For example, let's say 15 people are waiting at Lei Shen for 10 new people. That ruins the week for another 10 people. However, what if those 15 break up into 15 groups of 1, and each 1 takes on 24 new people. That could potentially give a fresh run to 300 people who are waiting for a fresh run. Annoy 15 people to please 300.

Further, if these 15 new groups get up to Lei Shen and some people just don't want to do it, then the remaining people can be combined. It's much easier to deal with too many people needing 3rd boss, than to deal with too many people needing 1st or 2nd boss.

Perhaps the annoyed people could be compensated by being handed 90 valor and still being eligible for another 90 valor, or something. I'm sure we would hear some forum whining from those people but it would have to be less than the amount of whining we currently get from people who just can't get a fresh run.
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90 Human Paladin
aus
18475
Queue times is part of the problem. But this is mostly just a pinnacle issue. 50 players get dumped into lei shen because 6 are determined to kill him. Indeed the first queue pop 38! minutes last night after I joined we went from 6 to 23 and back to 10 in less then 60 seconds.

Perhaps the annoyed people could be compensated by being handed 90 valor and still being eligible for another 90 valor, or something


Just another incentive, if Lei shen gave 180 valor in the first place he probably would not be so much of a pain to kill
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
You should stop thinking things through, you're forgetting, that those 15 people having to run the place 2-3 damn times to get those "300" people is the issue.

Leaving it as it is, and people learning Lei Shen (It's actually happening, I've had no issues at all with him in 2 weeks, with 6 one shot clears, and 2 sub-5 shots, even discounting the minor nerfs)

Queues only suck on Mondays, which, you can blame people for doing LFR on Monday, with how the current game system works, there's no way to avoid that "issue", without changing the entire game for LFR Whiners, which, we saw how DS went when they designed the entire tier around lfr.
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90 Human Paladin
16345
Or make a "Prefers in progress run" option and bump the repeat complete VP to 90. Few people or group, esp those who are geared and know the fight enough, might go use it for quick VP...
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90 Human Paladin
aus
18475
Queues only suck on Mondays, which, you can blame people for doing LFR on Monday, with how the current game system works, there's no way to avoid that "issue", without changing the entire game for LFR Whiners, which, we saw how DS went when they designed the entire tier around lfr.


Had a horrendous time on a thursday. I think 2 shot, 4 shot(thursday) and 2 shot this week. Killing him is not the issue, getting 25 people is.
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90 Goblin Hunter
13400
A non-loot incentive for killing the same boss again in LFR would be nice. Instead of less VP, extra VP for clearing it again. Like 120 for clearing it again. And you are ineligible for it if you are in a group (I'm assuming Blizz wouldn't like guilds chain running LFR and abusing the queue to get this again and again.)
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11 Troll Hunter
0
Make Lei shin his own LFR wing and let the other two remain together. Split up the valor. Problem solved.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
A non-loot incentive for killing the same boss again in LFR would be nice. Instead of less VP, extra VP for clearing it again. Like 120 for clearing it again. And you are ineligible for it if you are in a group (I'm assuming Blizz wouldn't like guilds chain running LFR and abusing the queue to get this again and again.)


But individual abuse is fine? Since I need nothing from LFR excepting Valor when 5.3 hits, I'd simply leave if it was a fresh run. This means I'd be effectively adding to the problem you're trying to solve with this change.

Good work.
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90 Troll Shaman
21170
To avoid partially complete runs, actually use Trade chat like the good old days to find a tank or 2 and some healers and DPS then queue. Your group will likely be large enough (or it has 2 tanks or 6 healers) that it is impossible to give you a partial run and you will be put in a fresh one.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8800
A non-loot incentive for killing the same boss again in LFR would be nice. Instead of less VP, extra VP for clearing it again. Like 120 for clearing it again. And you are ineligible for it if you are in a group (I'm assuming Blizz wouldn't like guilds chain running LFR and abusing the queue to get this again and again.)


Why not? Finishes a bunch of groups out :P

I think the complaints would be more from the groups, for having to carry people (but maybe they wouldn't mind, if it's faster than dailies). It's essentially what people did in DS LFR, it was the reverse-people fished for incomplete runs on purpose.

For example, let's say 15 people are waiting at Lei Shen for 10 new people. That ruins the week for another 10 people. However, what if those 15 break up into 15 groups of 1, and each 1 takes on 24 new people. That could potentially give a fresh run to 300 people who are waiting for a fresh run. Annoy 15 people to please 300.


I don't think breaking up the group would enable 15 new groups, there aren't that many groups just waiting around for 1 guy to start a new run.

And realistically, doesn't this just shift the complaint from "i got lie shen 3 times in a row" to "i only need lie shen, but got stuck in 3 new groups"?

It skips queue times i guess, but they could do that now if they wanted.

Perhaps the annoyed people could be compensated by being handed 90 valor and still being eligible for another 90 valor, or something


That might be funky. People might stick around for the 90 valor, then drop after the new group is formed.

I really like the idea of combining raids stuck at lei shen though. Just mash 15+10 from another group together, and let them go.
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90 Draenei Priest
14065
I don't think the preference option is going to work. Unfortunately there are some who believe the fight to be a pain and would prefer to skip him. I have never had a problem getting double Lei Shen, but I know it's one of the reasons many leave groups. I'd actually suggest that if someone hasn't done a boss in a particular LFR but is having to do the last boss a second time, the game treat it for loot/rep purposes as the previous boss. So for example, I do Lei Shen the first time and get his loot. I queue again for the bosses I missed but get Lei Shen again. The game sees I've defeated Lei Shen already but not the twin consorts so it gives me rep/loot as though I had killed twin consorts. If I queue again and get Lei shen a third time, then the game gives me loot/rep for Iron Quon.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
12760
The myriad adjustments I've read about or have seen implemented so LFR can substitute for a pickup group remind me of AI. It's like LFR is an attempt to create a robot waiter or something -- by itself the concept is fascinating, but the inability for coding to account for a highly nuanced, deeply interactive occupation makes it plain the job would be better left to a competent, cheery kid in high school.

Matchmaking is an excellent addition for brief, easy, high-consumption content. Complexity, however, seems inversely proportional to the likelihood of success with such a large, short-term proposition that includes the least common denominator. Raiding needs to be controlled, I think, by people from start to finish.
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90 Night Elf Druid
5475
I really like the idea of combining raids stuck at lei shen though. Just mash 15+10 from another group together, and let them go.


Or even, if there are 3 groups of 15ish, splitting one of them in half to divide the players between the other two groups (then only a handful of people need to be brought in from the solo queue, rather than 30 or so if each group fills separately). If the system can track who originally queued together, those players should be kept together because some people like to run with friends, but other than that, it should be willing to split a group that has lost a bunch of people to put the remaining people into other groups that have the same progression.

Of course, it would still have to keep role balance, but I think that in some circumstances this could still be an improvement over the current system.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8800
I don't think the preference option is going to work. Unfortunately there are some who believe the fight to be a pain and would prefer to skip him. I have never had a problem getting double Lei Shen, but I know it's one of the reasons many leave groups. I'd actually suggest that if someone hasn't done a boss in a particular LFR but is having to do the last boss a second time, the game treat it for loot/rep purposes as the previous boss. So for example, I do Lei Shen the first time and get his loot. I queue again for the bosses I missed but get Lei Shen again. The game sees I've defeated Lei Shen already but not the twin consorts so it gives me rep/loot as though I had killed twin consorts. If I queue again and get Lei shen a third time, then the game gives me loot/rep for Iron Quon.


That's a neat idea as well. I think there might be some (probably rather far fetched) worries of somehow abusing it, (or it ending up doing the reverse, and letting people just kill easier bosses for lei shen loot), but other than that, it's not bad.
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90 Goblin Hunter
13400
05/06/2013 09:00 AMPosted by Hyjinx
A non-loot incentive for killing the same boss again in LFR would be nice. Instead of less VP, extra VP for clearing it again. Like 120 for clearing it again. And you are ineligible for it if you are in a group (I'm assuming Blizz wouldn't like guilds chain running LFR and abusing the queue to get this again and again.)


But individual abuse is fine? Since I need nothing from LFR excepting Valor when 5.3 hits, I'd simply leave if it was a fresh run. This means I'd be effectively adding to the problem you're trying to solve with this change.

Good work.


The reason its fine as individual is individually there's only so much faster you can make a group go. You could VP cap for the week so fast doing a section of LFR as a 25man guild group (or even 15 people in a 10m guild). That's just what the abuse I'm referring to is. VP capping so much faster than Blizz wants.

And the bonus would still apply if it was a fresh run.
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90 Draenei Priest
14065
05/08/2013 01:04 PMPosted by Arianity
I don't think the preference option is going to work. Unfortunately there are some who believe the fight to be a pain and would prefer to skip him. I have never had a problem getting double Lei Shen, but I know it's one of the reasons many leave groups. I'd actually suggest that if someone hasn't done a boss in a particular LFR but is having to do the last boss a second time, the game treat it for loot/rep purposes as the previous boss. So for example, I do Lei Shen the first time and get his loot. I queue again for the bosses I missed but get Lei Shen again. The game sees I've defeated Lei Shen already but not the twin consorts so it gives me rep/loot as though I had killed twin consorts. If I queue again and get Lei shen a third time, then the game gives me loot/rep for Iron Quon.


That's a neat idea as well. I think there might be some (probably rather far fetched) worries of somehow abusing it, (or it ending up doing the reverse, and letting people just kill easier bosses for lei shen loot), but other than that, it's not bad.


Well I kind of envision it only working if it is an earlier boss you haven't killed. So you wouldn't be able to kill quon or the imperial vizier 3 times and get lei shen or garalon loot since you have the option of continuing the raid. However, you would be able to kill lei shen or garalon three times and end up getting the loot for quon or garalon. It just helps those people that are re queuing and getting only bosses they've already killed.
Edited by Mieme on 5/8/2013 10:20 PM PDT
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