5.3 Rogue Nerf, Really?

90 Human Mage
4840
Shadowstep is just as effective as Cloak and Dagger to a skilled rogue


Any skilled rogue would disagree. When you use shadowdance, 3/4 of the time you plan on killing something. If it's a druid and he blinks away you can still be right on him. then he shapeshifts your poison and roots and tries to LoS and pops say darkflight so he's running at 110% speed.

if you were using shadowstep he would have got away there's no doubt about it, whereas CnD would have gotten you the kill. this is just one scenario there are literally dozens maybe even hundreds if you take into account their partners CC.

Also I'm not sure if you're aware of this but it's pretty common for rogues to try and get restealths, so no it's not a gap closer on a 2 minute cool down you could use it several times in 2 minutes. but now that it won't work with dance, the time when you need it the most, it sort of really sucks.

I think YOU should get of your facts and details straightened out then re-evaluate your stance.
Edited by Pinkîepyro on 5/8/2013 6:57 PM PDT
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If it's a druid and he blinks away you can still be right on him. then he shapeshifts your poison and roots and tries to LoS and pops say darkflight so he's running at 110% speed.

if you were using shadowstep he would have got away there's no doubt about it, whereas CnD would have gotten you the kill. this is just one scenario there are literally dozens maybe even hundreds if you take into account their partners CC.


A skilled rogue would've forced trinkets before expecting a kill during Shadowdance. In case you're unaware, you can stunlock someone, forcing them to eat your entire dance. Even without Cloak and Dagger. He may also Gouge or Shiv the druid, in anticipation to him using those abilities. This is why I was specific about skilled rogues using Shadowstep just as effectively as Cloak and Dagger.

People benefit from CLoak and Dagger just as much as people who use Shadowstep. There are small but potent variances to both talents that provides each with a different playstyle.

05/08/2013 06:52 PMPosted by Pinkîepyro
Also I'm not sure if you're aware of this but it's pretty common for rogues to try and get restealths, so no it's not a gap closer on a 2 minute cool down you could use it several times in 2 minutes. but now that it won't work with dance, the time when you need it the most, it sort of really sucks.


If a rogue is going for a restealth, then he has no need for a gap closer. Therefor, completely defeating the purpose of Cloak and Dagger as a gap closer. Also, the odds of you getting a restealth several times in a 2 minute window is very, very unlikely. Getting 1 in a 3's match is hard enough. During most comps, rogues are the kill target.
Edited by Dazwazbi on 5/8/2013 8:09 PM PDT
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90 Human Mage
4840
If a rogue is going for a restealth, then he has no need for a gap closer


What? why not? why not be able to get right back on your target as fast possible? You're saying you don't benefit from this? you would rather do it slower?

skilled rogue would've forced trinkets before expecting a kill during Shadowdance


I've killed hundreds of people with their trinkets up while in shadow dance.

In case you're unaware, you can stunlock someone to eat your whole shadow dance


I can also force someone to eat my shadow dance while they are not stunlocked because of CnD. I would rather have the option to do both.

05/08/2013 08:08 PMPosted by Dazwazbi
He may also Gouge or Shiv the druid, in anticipation to him using those abilities.


Wait.. what? I'm trying to kill the druid before he can get away, the second he takes damage from any source the gouge will break and shiv? unless I was using paralytic poison I don't see how this would stop him from getting away and even then he's a druid and can just shapeshift out of the root in less than a second. plus the druid is running away with 100% extra movement speed. How am I supposed to gouge him if shadowstep is down and I don't have CnD? he's already a few yards ahead of me. he has 30k HP left. one backstab would finish him off, then boom he's in back of a pillar healing while I'm slowed.

Plus this was just one scenario..
Edited by Pinkîepyro on 5/8/2013 8:39 PM PDT
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[quote]If a rogue is going for a restealth, then he has no need for a gap closer

What? why not? why not be able to get right back on your target as fast possible? You're saying you don't benefit from this? you would rather do it slower?


You're 100% twisting my words around. The rest of your post is just defensive packpeddling just for the sake of arguing. I'm not sure if you're serious or just trying to troll so I'll ignore everything else.

I'm really passionate about rogues and I'm not looking to upset anyone. Everyone will benefit if we find ways to improve areas that are sub-par instead of just nerfing things that most people enjoy. It also makes the talent system a lot more fun, challenging, and interesting when you're offered choices rather than the "set it and forget it" style that we've experienced.

Just to clarify, every rogue can restealth. It doesn't matter what talent build or spec he is. Restealth, in itself, is a gap closer but it's one that every rogue has access to. There's no question whether or not it's beneficial.
The argument that you're able to get one, to benefit from Cloak and Dagger, is redundant. You can achieve the same effect by physically running to your target to apply Cheap Shot or whatever. For those who don't know, 20 yards is about the distance of 3 target dummies.
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90 Human Mage
4840
You're 100% twisting my words around. The rest of your post is just defensive packpeddling just for the sake of arguing. I'm not sure if you're serious or just trying to troll so I'll ignore everything else.


I doubt you even read the rest of my post and of course it's for the sake of arguing my argument is CnD is better than shadowstep in almost every situation. and I don't see how I'm twisting your words I quoted your post and explained to you that instantly teleporting behind your target is better than walking up to it. There are SO many ways you can be slowed in stealth where this would benefit you. For example one of your team mates hits an ice trap.. your movement speed is greatly reduced and your target is moving around being able to just pop up behind him would be great.

Anyway I'm just going to stop responding to this because frankly it doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about... How are you going to gouge the druid if he's running away from you much faster than you are? you need to be infront of your target to gouge unless you feel like wasting a glyph. and I figure you know that EVERY class has that 1 talent that is better for their spec than any of the others that is an almost non negotiable pick when it comes to PVP...
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EVERY class has that 1 talent that is better for their spec than any of the others that is an almost non negotiable pick when it comes to PVP...


For rogues that talent is Subterfuge, not Cloak and Dagger.
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90 Human Rogue
3260
Anyway I'm just going to stop responding to this because frankly it doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about... How are you going to gouge the druid if he's running away from you much faster than you are? you need to be infront of your target to gouge unless you feel like wasting a glyph. and I figure you know that EVERY class has that 1 talent that is better for their spec than any of the others that is an almost non negotiable pick when it comes to PVP...


Dirty Tricks makes that Glyph a very good contender for a slot.

Cloak and Dagger is not 'the PvP talent' for its tier and you should feel silly for saying it. Out of the three, it seems like a crutch for poor executions, and promotes lax skill building.

Now if Cloak and Dagger mimicked Double Time or had a set of charges per dance, then I'd be more impressed with it.
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90 Human Mage
4840
Cloak and Dagger is not 'the PvP talent' for its tier and you should feel silly for saying it


I never said it was. I don't use it for assassination and if I was combat I wouldn't use it either. I was referring to the guy above who doesn't even have a rogue was saying about it being better because now sub rogues actually have to choose between BoS and shadowstep because CnD is no longer the best option.

And no offense but how would you even know? you're level 63 haven't tried PVP at 90 yet and you've only had the option to use CnD for what I would assume is 2-3 hours since you hit level 60.
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90 Human Mage
4840
05/08/2013 09:59 PMPosted by Pinkîepyro
Cloak and Dagger is not 'the PvP talent' for its tier and you should feel silly for saying it


I never said it was. I don't use it for assassination and if I was combat I wouldn't use it either. I was referring to what the guy above who doesn't even have a rogue was saying about it being better because now sub rogues actually have to choose between BoS and shadowstep because CnD is no longer the best option.

And no offense but how would you even know? you're level 63 haven't tried PVP at 90 yet and you've only had the option to use CnD for what I would assume is 2-3 hours since you hit level 60.
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90 Human Rogue
10935
[quote]If a rogue is going for a restealth, then he has no need for a gap closer

What? why not? why not be able to get right back on your target as fast possible? You're saying you don't benefit from this? you would rather do it slower?


You're 100% twisting my words around. The rest of your post is just defensive packpeddling just for the sake of arguing. I'm not sure if you're serious or just trying to troll so I'll ignore everything else.

I'm really passionate about rogues and I'm not looking to upset anyone. Everyone will benefit if we find ways to improve areas that are sub-par instead of just nerfing things that most people enjoy. It also makes the talent system a lot more fun, challenging, and interesting when you're offered choices rather than the "set it and forget it" style that we've experienced.

Just to clarify, every rogue can restealth. It doesn't matter what talent build or spec he is. Restealth, in itself, is a gap closer but it's one that every rogue has access to. There's no question whether or not it's beneficial.
The argument that you're able to get one, to benefit from Cloak and Dagger, is redundant. You can achieve the same effect by physically running to your target to apply Cheap Shot or whatever. For those who don't know, 20 yards is about the distance of 3 target dummies.
restealth is not a gap closer, charge, shadow step, death grip...etc are gap closers. they close a gap, stealth may allow you to repostion but it takes time, time in which your target is healing/being healed and you are losing your kill and if your target is running away from you (i.e. flag carrier) you are not going to get any closer to them
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90 Undead Rogue
4445
Cloak and Dagger currently is far superior (for Sub) to Shadow Step and someone arguing otherwise is dumb or just being tediously argumentative.
Edited by Crookston on 5/9/2013 12:09 AM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
14630
Cloak and dagger was a dumb idea that should have never gone live- and here we are one patch later, and blizzard is realizing the obvious, but instead of replacing the talent they plan on leaving its dead husk rotting in our talent tree until 5.4.

CnD is interesting because only players with a certain amount of skill can truly exploit it, but if you are at that skill plateau it allows you to totally dominate without much thought or skill.

We are strong in 5.2 in a really unhealthy way for the game; I just wish their decisions to scrap bad ideas coincided with their replacements.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
0
Be careful what you're wishing for, there. :) I think the argument could be made -- in fact, you literally just made it, Gileril -- that CnD wasn't thought through quite as well as it could have been before it went live, and as a result many rogues are now upset because they're losing a favorite toy that probably never should have been as good as it was.

What they're doing now is a MORE responsible approach to a problem situation. They don't have a solid idea yet for how they want this talent tier to shake out. So they're going to fix the most broken aspects of it -- which, at the moment, are that the combination of rogue burst and uptime potential is just too strong -- and then they'll come back and spend more time to try to figure out something that works better for 5.4 (assuming it's necessary, and PvP rogues don't adjust in 5.3 and discover that they actually like it pretty well after all).

The alternative would be a knee-jerk replacement of a talent without fully thinking through the possible implications. Which is arguably exactly what got us into the current situation. It's better this way.
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90 Human Rogue
3260
And no offense but how would you even know? you're level 63 haven't tried PVP at 90 yet and you've only had the option to use CnD for what I would assume is 2-3 hours since you hit level 60.


PTR. I played a Rogue on the 5.2 PTR and play tested through every talent on every tier at least three times.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
3955
I honestly just wish they would give us hit and run lol. I thought that talent was so cool and had so many possibilities.
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90 Undead Rogue
4445
Hit and run sucked. Sort of cool, yes. But it sucked.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
3955
Hit and run sucked. Sort of cool, yes. But it sucked.


Gee when you put it like that.
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90 Human Rogue
4260
Where is this OMGWTFBBQSAUCE burst dps other rogues keep talking about..? In fact, rogues are now scarce in BGs..
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Where is this OMGWTFBBQSAUCE burst dps other rogues keep talking about..? In fact, rogues are now scarce in BGs..


Lol I've been in BGs with 5-6 rogues before. Pop trinket shadow blades and shadow dance garrote + premad target SnD spam ambush and evisc marked for death evisc again ambush. That will kill pretty much anything that isn't a warlock.
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90 Human Rogue
4260
05/09/2013 01:04 PMPosted by Çelestîä
Where is this OMGWTFBBQSAUCE burst dps other rogues keep talking about..? In fact, rogues are now scarce in BGs..


Lol I've been in BGs with 5-6 rogues before. Pop trinket shadow blades and shadow dance garrote + premad target SnD spam ambush and evisc marked for death evisc again ambush. That will kill pretty much anything that isn't a warlock.


That only works on AFK players. Any decent PvP'er can stop such succession.
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