Shaman Tanking ~ New Spec

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90 Orc Warrior
16445
and to all the people saying "i'd love to play a shaman tank!" - how the heck do you know if you'd love it? you don't know how this hypothetical never-to-exist specialization would play
I tank all the time on my enhancement shaman... lol
91 Tauren Shaman
7500
05/08/2013 02:54 PMPosted by Arash
and to all the people saying "i'd love to play a shaman tank!" - how the heck do you know if you'd love it? you don't know how this hypothetical never-to-exist specialization would play


I tank all the time on my enhancement shaman... lol


sure you do

the biggest problem with this idea is that the shaman class needs development time and we need it spent on balancing our existing specializations before we throw a fourth into the mix. there's a lot of "shamans aren't as bad off as they seem" on this forum (and it is correct) but i don't think that many people - if any - will tell you that all shaman specs are "fine."
Edited by Naqoyqatsi on 5/8/2013 4:03 PM PDT
90 Orc Death Knight
5115
I find the amount of tanking abilities on a shaman, especially as enhancement, to point that a shaman should be a viable tanking class.


with that logic

rogues should tank because evasion

warlocks should tank because dark apotheosis

hunters should tank because bestial wrath

shadow priests should tank because shadowform
Not exactly the same logic. Those are either legnthy cooldowns, glyphs or mitigation added to reduce squishiness. Rockbiter is basically a stance. Unleash Rockbiter is easily rotatable, having only a 15 second cooldown. Shamans have tankier, more consistent abilities than only a flat 15% damage reduction.

Shamans can also wield shields with no additional benefits, which has always seemed odd. They could easily make the fourth spec's Mastery revolve around the use of shields. 3 part idea to do this:
1. Fourth spec gets Static Shock.
2. Lightning Shield procs reduce damage taken, similar to the glyph, as well as generating threat. Call it "Grounded Shield." Multiple procs within duration either refreshes duration, stacks duration or stacks effect to a cap.
3a. Mastery: Blocks made with an offhand shield have an 'x'% chance to proc Static Shock.
3b. Mastery: Increases the amount of damage Lightning Shield reduces when it procs (making idea 3a baseline to the spec).

Just because shamans have unleash rockbiter doesn't mean that they should have a magical special 4th spec added. shamans could never effectively tank anything beyond wailing caverns anyways, even in vanilla. i was there, i have the FOS to prove it.
The fact that shamans still have an ability like Rockbiter, with effects like Unleash and the level 90 passive, is very telling. Lots of facelifts and consolidating have gone into this expansion. It's no oversight that Rockbiter was left in.

05/08/2013 02:16 PMPosted by Naqoyqatsi
and to all the people saying "i'd love to play a shaman tank!" - how the heck do you know if you'd love it? you don't know how this hypothetical never-to-exist specialization would play. maybe you're hate it. maybe it'd require totem weaving and pet management and stance dancing and all kinds of such nonsense that nobody likes
Use your imagination. You know the class, you more than likely have tanked on another. It's not a hard stretch of the mind to imagine how a Shaman tank would play.

They also wouldn't make it overly complicated. Stance dancing was done away with and no tanks should worry about groups of mobs as well as a pet. Totems are simple now that they're mostly just situational cooldowns.

It doesn't seem like a bad idea. Some of the tools and mechanics are already there.

05/08/2013 03:57 PMPosted by Naqoyqatsi
the biggest problem with this idea is that the shaman class needs development time and we need it spent on balancing our existing specializations before we throw a fourth into the mix. there's a lot of "shamans aren't as bad off as they seem" on this forum (and it is correct) but i don't think that many people - if any - will tell you that all shaman specs are "fine."
This I agree with. How long did it take Druids to get a fourth spec? Far, far down the road, if Blizz ever decides that the game needs more tanking options, I would bet Shaman to be the first candidate before they add a brand new class.
Edited by Powerßottom on 5/8/2013 4:58 PM PDT
80 Undead Rogue
3615
I would bet Shaman to be the first candidate before they add a brand new class.
Which is why they added 2 brand new classes that could tank since Wrath mirite?

All in all 1/10, seen better trolls.
90 Pandaren Shaman
15495
05/08/2013 02:03 PMPosted by Johnz
How many times must this horse be beaten. Honestly a good chunk of the shaman community (on forums) have said many times we don't want a tank spec so stop bringing this up yes we can use shields but that means nothing about tanking considering 3 of the 5 tanks don't use shields


Don't speak for all shamans. I would love to tank of my shaman if they made a 4th spec and really polished it. Would really love to see it.

Also it could be dwing tank and have earth shield with some added bonuses for tank spec the main shield.
read post again I didn't claim to speak for all shaman I said a good chunk on forums meaning I didn't include people who don't post and didn't claim all shaman on forums don't want tanking
90 Pandaren Shaman
15495
inb4 those have no threat gain, those are defensive cooldowns, rockbiter is useless in all forms lol, not a cooldown its a dps loss to use over frost or fire imbue

hunters have a distracting shot, intimidation or what ever its called and pet can taunt
90 Orc Death Knight
5115
05/08/2013 06:45 PMPosted by Lisara
inb4 those have no threat gain, those are defensive cooldowns, rockbiter is useless in all forms lol, not a cooldown its a dps loss to use over frost or fire imbue

hunters have a distracting shot, intimidation or what ever its called and pet can taunt
Because back when Hunters had a minimum range, leveling was a nightmare if you didn't two-shot the mob.

Also, they're still useful clutch abilities to use in a raid enviroment.

05/08/2013 05:24 PMPosted by Vaulttwo
I would bet Shaman to be the first candidate before they add a brand new class.
Which is why they added 2 brand new classes that could tank since Wrath mirite?

All in all 1/10, seen better trolls.
Why did you only quote half the sentence? The first part stated the reason for the second part.

Since Wrath to now, we had 5 total new tank specs, with two removed when Cata launched and two added when MoP launched.
Edited by Powerßottom on 5/8/2013 8:15 PM PDT
90 Orc Shaman
13750
It's not happening. Give it up already.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
Use your imagination. You know the class, you more than likely have tanked on another. It's not a hard stretch of the mind to imagine how a Shaman tank would play.


No, it's not hard to imagine how you think a Shaman tank would play. Because you're imagining it. Just because you imagine it a certain way doesn't mean Blizzard would.

They also wouldn't make it overly complicated. Stance dancing was done away with and no tanks should worry about groups of mobs as well as a pet. Totems are simple now that they're mostly just situational cooldowns.


I might agree that they no longer design anything overly complicated if they hadn't done just that with Enhancement's AoE.

The fact that shamans still have an ability like Rockbiter, with effects like Unleash and the level 90 passive, is very telling. Lots of facelifts and consolidating have gone into this expansion. It's no oversight that Rockbiter was left in.


Yeah, and we have word directly from the devs about what Rockbiter is supposed to be for.. and it ain't tanking. Also, just because a class has a few defensive abilities doesn't mean they can tank or were meant to. Look at Warlocks.

This I agree with. How long did it take Druids to get a fourth spec? Far, far down the road, if Blizz ever decides that the game needs more tanking options, I would bet Shaman to be the first candidate before they add a brand new class.


I beg to differ because if they thought that they would have redesigned Shaman already instead of adding Monks and their tanking spec.

Since Wrath to now, we had 5 total new tank specs, with two removed when Cata launched and two added when MoP launched.


Two added with Mists. Brewmaster and what, exactly?

Tanks before Mists: Prot War, Prot Paladin, Feral Druid, Blood DK.

Tanks after Mists: Prot War, Prot Paladin, Feral Druid, Blood DK, Brewmaster Monk.
90 Orc Death Knight
5115
05/08/2013 09:13 PMPosted by Hyjinx
No, it's not hard to imagine how you think a Shaman tank would play. Because you're imagining it. Just because you imagine it a certain way doesn't mean Blizzard would.
We're not talking about how the Devs would do it. Class forums are for players to discuss. The only official activity here is the occcassional moderation and the even rare Blue post, disambiguating or expanding information.

05/08/2013 09:13 PMPosted by Hyjinx
I might agree that they no longer design anything overly complicated if they hadn't done just that with Enhancement's AoE.
Relatively complicated but not hard. Flame Shock > Lava Lash > Fire Nova, all with Magma Totem down and using Maelstrom on Chain Lightning.

05/08/2013 09:13 PMPosted by Hyjinx
Yeah, and we have word directly from the devs about what Rockbiter is supposed to be for.. and it ain't tanking. Also, just because a class has a few defensive abilities doesn't mean they can tank or were meant to. Look at Warlocks.
Sometimes, it seems like Blizz adds or changes some abilities to test the water. They did it with 3 tanking specs in one class. They found one that worked best and revamped the class. Who knows what they'll do next. It doesn't hurt to discuss ideas.

05/08/2013 09:13 PMPosted by Hyjinx
I beg to differ because if they thought that they would have redesigned Shaman already instead of adding Monks and their tanking spec.
I seem to be getting misquoted here. I said far, far down the road. I'm still hopeful for a revamp of Runeforging.

05/08/2013 09:13 PMPosted by Hyjinx
Since Wrath to now, we had 5 total new tank specs, with two removed when Cata launched and two added when MoP launched.


Two added with Mists. Brewmaster and what, exactly?

Tanks before Mists: Prot War, Prot Paladin, Feral Druid, Blood DK.

Tanks after Mists: Prot War, Prot Paladin, Feral Druid, Blood DK, Brewmaster Monk.
[/quote] Guardian Druid was made a true spec, making up the second tank spec added to Mists. Feral no longer Tanks after Mists.
93 Undead Monk
2365
what a horrible idea. Shamans can barely dps or heal (struggling this xpac) and you would want a fourth spec as a tank? Lol That's really dumb

Why? So a Shaman could say: "4xxilvl Shaman Tank LFG!!"

Then the entire trade chat would be like "hahaha no, you guys suck lol"

This is as bad as the "Jump to Conclusion" mat

http://youtu.be/xRxqY4wuTHw
Edited by Nuckles on 5/8/2013 10:26 PM PDT
90 Draenei Shaman
9355
what a horrible idea. Shamans can barely dps or heal (struggling this xpac) and you would want a fourth spec as a tank? Lol That's really dumb

Why? So a Shaman could say: "4xxilvl Shaman Tank LFG!!"

Then the entire trade chat would be like "hahaha no, you guys suck lol"


I wouldn't mind if my class was only capable of being a bad tank. I see plenty of bad tanks running around, and even though I wouldn't take them to raid, they're useful for plenty of things, like "heroic" dungeons. Of course then we'd have people qq'ing about shamans being bad tanks, so that's why we can't just be bad ones. Oh well.
80 Undead Rogue
3615
Why did you only quote half the sentence? The first part stated the reason for the second part.
Because the first part is asinine? They already added two classes capable of tanking, you'd think that would show a "reason" for them not wanting to revisit shaman "tanks".

Guardian Druid was made a true spec, making up the second tank spec added to Mists. Feral no longer Tanks after Mists.
Druids were able to tank as bears before the guardian tree was implemented. So your reasoning for guardian being a new spec is not 100% correct unless you're just trying to argue semantics.

The only thing blizzard did was split the same talent branch to make it easier for them to balance. Now before you say "Well they can give shaman a fourth spec!". They've already stated no other classes needed it.

Blue post from the EU forums :
We have already commented on why it is that we do not plan to give other classes a fourth spec. The reason for the fourth spec being given to druids is as you have said already in your opening post; The Feral tree was always 2 completely different play styles and the fourth talent tree for them in MoP is simply to distinguish these 2 builds more.
Edited by Vaulttwo on 5/9/2013 3:25 AM PDT
90 Orc Shaman
13750
Guardian Druid was made a true spec, making up the second tank spec added to Mists. Feral no longer Tanks after Mists.


That's crap. Druids could tank before Mists; nothing was added. We had 4, now we have 5. We don't have 6.

I wouldn't mind if my class was only capable of being a bad tank. I see plenty of bad tanks running around, and even though I wouldn't take them to raid, they're useful for plenty of things, like "heroic" dungeons. Of course then we'd have people qq'ing about shamans being bad tanks, so that's why we can't just be bad ones. Oh well.


You might not mind, but as you say others would and Blizzard definitely would. Their current design is to have every spec of every class viable for a raid. Therefore if Shaman were revamped to tank, they would have to be revamped with that in mind.

We're not talking about how the Devs would do it. Class forums are for players to discuss. The only official activity here is the occcassional moderation and the even rare Blue post, disambiguating or expanding information.


We've discussed this particular topic to a pile of red goo on the ground. Also, you're sidestepping. It's definitely relevant to bring up the point about the devs. When I read the Cataclysm tank changes, my first alt to max level was my DK because I wanted to tank on him. Thought I'd love the changes. Got him to 85, tried out blood, and absolutely hated it. The bottom line is that you can't say you would love something that doesn't exist. It's not a valid point.

I seem to be getting misquoted here. I said far, far down the road. I'm still hopeful for a revamp of Runeforging.


Since it does no good to discuss "far, far down the road," I ignored it. You seem to like putting irrelevant information in your posts that then protesting misquotes when it's ignored. Nobody cares about far, far down the road and you didn't even bother to give an estimate of what it means. How the hell are we supposed to discuss it when you don't even bother to define it?

On an overall note, by the way, the argument has never been that the devs could not do Shaman tanks if they wanted to. They could make Rogues heal by stabbing you in the face if they felt like it. The relevant point is that they don't want to and have repeatedly said so. Until we get some inkling that they have changed their stance there's nothing to discuss.
Edited by Hyjinx on 5/9/2013 7:18 AM PDT
100 Dwarf Shaman
14970
You're basically saying hunters should be tanks because they have Distracting Shot. Rockbiter is not a taunt as it does not transfer threat.

also: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/20271-shaman-intended-to-tank-in-cata/
Edited by Maios on 5/9/2013 12:58 PM PDT
90 Draenei Shaman
7205
Just saw this in another thread:

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/330486357598277633

Not a guarantee by any means, but definitely not a flat-out "NEVER". I suppose I'm happy with that for now, but that dead horse over there certainly looks like he's got it comin'...
90 Orc Shaman
13750
Just saw this in another thread:

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/330486357598277633

Not a guarantee by any means, but definitely not a flat-out "NEVER". I suppose I'm happy with that for now, but that dead horse over there certainly looks like he's got it comin'...


On an overall note, by the way, the argument has never been that the devs could not do Shaman tanks if they wanted to. They could make Rogues heal by stabbing you in the face if they felt like it. The relevant point is that they don't want to and have repeatedly said so. Until we get some inkling that they have changed their stance there's nothing to discuss.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
10810
you know i have never won the lottery but i'm sure i would love it
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