We asked for High Elves, we got High Elves

90 Night Elf Priest
11530
You realize how silly it sounds to definitively write something off because it already has an incarnation in-game, then to turn around and ask for something else that already has an incarnation in-game?

HINT: Very, very silly.
It was sarcasm. I only meant to said as the high elves race, is as silly as asking a playable wild hammer dwarf .
You want the lore of the high elves?, Create a Blood Elf. Is the same but with other details. Do not like the horde?, Ohhhh then don't create a Blood Elf. The High Elves never be playable, this I assure you. If they did the horde would be empty
Edited by Serendia on 5/12/2013 5:09 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
14695
You want the lore of the high elves?, Create a Blood Elf. Is the same but with other details. Do not like the horde?, Ohhhh then don't create a Blood Elf. The High Elves never be playable, this I assure you. If they did the horde would be empty


It's true that HE's and BE's have shared history, at least up until the Third War. It's untrue that HE's and BE's have shared culture, they're similar but singularly distinct. This is not unlike Icelandic, Danish, Norwegian and Swedish folks.

If we're working with the understanding that history, culture, traditions and practices are all included under the categorical of "lore", then strictly speaking they're not the same at all -- otherwise they wouldn't be like to continue the perpetual conflict and/or civil war that's been raging for years and years.

That said, I doubt they'd ever implement them as they are portrayed on the Isle of Thunder. They're too likely to be mocked as "copy/paste" by anybody who doesn't intimately follow their storied past, which is why I imagine that any playable HE's would be like to come from a faction which was altered by some means to explain why they looked vastly different from other HE's.
Edited by Fyorsing on 5/12/2013 5:42 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Warlock
16740
See, here we're at an impasse. I want them to make Night elves more savage and brutal because I want all the people who want to play pretty, cutesy elves to go Horde or quit altogether.


They should be different from Humans and Dwarves, really. Turns out WoW just made Night Elves look like hippies. They could be incredibly savage and relentless, but never were actually unreasonable. They have a lifestyle that takes in consideration all life forms, not just their "petty society" like the other races, so when someone invades their territories and incur their wrath is certainly because these invaders have done more than just hunt to survive.

It's just awful that they turned out to be a people with probably the best and logical behavior to portrayed as "arrogant tree-huggers". Also, it seems Night Elves have only lost in WoW. Not necessarily in victories, but when it comes to their lore. Their strength,, Sentinels, Tyrande, Elune, Warden, Druidism, you name it. Everything is either portrayed badly or have been "removed". People are right when they say it was gutted. The "living in the nature as part of the nature" have been replaced with "Night Elf issues" and "the nature issues".

There are two problems here. Firstly, that Blizz always related violence with "YOU LOSE". If you're violent, you're a bad person and you gonna lose or at least be called out on that, like Tyrande was in ALP. And secondly, that devs -cough- Kosak -cough- really thought that A Little Patience was awesome! I'm talking from a lore-standpoint, I don't really care if the mechanics or content was "fun".
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90 Worgen Warlock
16740
It was sarcasm. I only meant to said as the high elves race, is as silly as asking a playable wild hammer dwarf .
You want the lore of the high elves?, Create a Blood Elf. Is the same but with other details. Do not like the horde?, Ohhhh then don't create a Blood Elf. The High Elves never be playable, this I assure you. If they did the horde would be empty


Wrong. It would be the same if people were asking for "playable Highborne", which are just Night Elves. Or maybe Horde asking for "Mag'har Orcs as the new playable race".

This is not different from asking to make Pandaren, if they were Horde-only, to be playable on the Alliance as well.

In fact, the funny part is that High Elves are already there, totally developed within the lore, as a strong part of the Alliance. So, we are just asking for a race that already have the entire background developed to merely become playable.

And if "they are going to be playable" or not, is not really up to you to decide nor state. If someone should say anything about the matter, is Blizzard.
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90 Night Elf Priest
11530
Wrong. It would be the same if people were asking for "playable Highborne", which are just Night Elves. Or maybe Horde asking for "Mag'har Orcs as the new playable race".

This is not different from asking to make Pandaren, if they were Horde-only, to be playable on the Alliance as well.

In fact, the funny part is that High Elves are already there, totally developed within the lore, as a strong part of the Alliance. So, we are just asking for a race that already have the entire background developed to merely become playable.

And if "they are going to be playable" or not, is not really up to you to decide nor state. If someone should say anything about the matter, is Blizzard.

And if the high elves could were playable. What race would give the horde that has the same lore and appearance that the alliance?.

Because it would seem unfair to give a "new" race to the horde, and we give one already has the other faction.
Edited by Serendia on 5/12/2013 6:07 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
14695
And if the high elves could were playable. What race would give the horde that has the same lore and appearance that the alliance?.

Because it would seem unfair to give a "new" race to the horde, and we give one already has the other faction.


That's why the group that we get to play needs some justification for having altered appearance, not unlike the Broken. Then this becomes a non-issue.

Edit: I myself can think of numerous examples, rooted in existing lore, for why a sub-faction of HE's might be made to look different, so I have to imagine that Blizzard has twice as many theoretical events stored away somewhere.
Edited by Fyorsing on 5/12/2013 6:17 PM PDT
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I'd rather High Elves look like Blood Elves with blue eyes. Maybe make High Elves closer to the thinner Blood Elves that existed in BC Beta, but other than that, I prefer the classic Elven look they have already. And again, Playable Pandaren (and before them, Arenas that allow same faction teams to face off) have p. much completely destroyed the "profile in PvP" argument.

Now personally, I wouldn't mind if the Horde got a completely new race if we got High Elves, because damn it, I want High Elves. However, if we want to be "fair," that's pretty easy.

Just give the Horde "Reformed" Eredar with a backstory that they left the Burning Legion but are distrusted by the Draenei because of their previous crimes and because they insist on continuing to use dark magics. That means that essentially Horde gets Draenei, Alliance gets Blood Elves, and we have a decent trade for both factions that gives Horde cool noble demons and gives Alliance a race they should have had since Vanilla without the feeling that one side got "imbalanced" by getting a new race instead of a reskin of the other side's race.
Edited by Jaelara on 5/12/2013 6:21 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
14695
05/12/2013 06:18 PMPosted by Jaelara
Just give the Horde "Reformed" Eredar with a backstory that they left the Burning Legion but are distrusted by the Draenei because of their previous crimes and because they insist on continuing to use dark magics.


If not this then the Broken should be considered, solely because they now seem to have more in common with the Horde than the Alliance anyways.
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90 Worgen Warlock
16740
And if the high elves could were playable. What race would give the horde that has the same lore and appearance that the alliance?.

Because it would seem unfair to give a "new" race to the horde, and we give one already has the other faction.


That's like demanding for something that was never been given. Horde is not losing anything. These aren't even Blood Elves themselves. They're High Elves with lore and everything already connected to the Alliance. This seems more like that special snowflake feeling, "only I can have it, if someone else gets it, I'm 'losing' and something must be given to me to make up for that".

Anyways, take a look a this. Let's just assume the Horde race is Ogre:

- Alliance will have: Human, Night Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Draenei, Worgen and Pandaren, more High Elves.
- Horde gets: Orc, Tauren, Troll, Undead, Blood Elf, Gobling and Pandaren, more Ogres.

Both factions have 8 different races. 2 of them happen to be on both sides. 1 of them was added for both sides at the same time through a single starting zone, while the other was added sooner for one and later for another.

Also, High Elves will probably be even better than Pandaren. Differently from those pandas, they have lore and a past with the Alliance. Because they're being added later, they will have a unique starting zone and maybe even racials. In concept they are the same race, but the background and mechanics in game can be totally different and new.

05/12/2013 06:18 PMPosted by Jaelara
Just give the Horde "Reformed" Eredar


I don't think the "Horde needs to get an Alliance race" at all. It always sound like people demanding for balance on the amount of losses in lore. Anyways, think for a moment. If we give them one race, what's the result? Horde will have 3 races that the Alliance has, while the Alliance will only have 2.

Either way, yea, reformed Eredar would fit on the Horde. They could be like the Forsaken, but demon related instead of undead.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
14490
05/09/2013 03:17 PMPosted by Osiria
Yet, hasn't it been noted in-game that the Highborne are seemingly inept when compared with High Elves/Blood Elves?


That's the young unskilled new Night Elf mages. The Highborne are quite skilled.


Incorrect.

The Highborne use outdated magic. Their constructs are fickle and easy to turn against their makers, and the devices they use as magical foci or scrying tools get crummy reception.

If anything, the newer Night Elf mages might be more of a match, since they wouldn't be so hung up on ancient tactics that the Silvermoon and Kirin Tor mages have been building on and improving for nearly ten thousand years now.

There's in-game examples of Blood Elves viewing the Night Elf Highborne with the same mix of contempt and amuzement a computer geek would reserve for someone who insists on using an abacus.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
14490


And if "they are going to be playable" or not, is not really up to you to decide nor state. If someone should say anything about the matter, is Blizzard.


They did.

They decided they wouldn't have Alliance High Elves when they didn't include them in the original release of the game. It was one of the most obvious races to include - but they decided not to.

They decided it way back in WCIII, when they started the entire Blood-Elves-Are-Angry-At-The-Alliance shift.

Blizzard made their choice. They made their stance on it clear, repeatedly.

The people who are saying that, no, we don't need playable High Elves aren't the ones trying to tell Blizzard their business, here.
Edited by Sylassanna on 5/12/2013 7:07 PM PDT
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05/12/2013 07:03 PMPosted by Sylassanna
The Highborne use outdated magic. Their constructs are fickle and easy to turn against their makers, and the devices they use as magical foci or scrying tools get crummy reception.
But the Highborne says that the magic of today is nothing compared to the thousands of years ago
Edited by Rholand on 5/12/2013 7:10 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
14490
If High Elves were done today, it's possible that they could've made them a "neutral race". Like the Pandaren.

You can choose to side with Silvermoon and the Blood Elves - or you can choose to side with the Silver Covenant and the Alliance.

But they didn't do that. The race is already here. It's already been done.

The High Elves are a big part of the story, and a major part of the Kirin Tor forces. That does not mean they need to be playable. Valkyr aren't playable, either. Dryads aren't playable. Jinyu and Hozen aren't playable.

And really, adding an Alliance race almost entirely based on antagonism to their Horde counterparts wouldn't exactly be good for the Alliance. Everything important and unique about High Elves has been given to the Blood Elves, including their culture and their capital city. We don't need the leftovers from Blood Elf development. We need the sort of development Blood Elves got for some of the races we already have.
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90 Night Elf Priest
11530
Dryads aren't playable
I want a dryad D:
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
14695
They did.

They decided they wouldn't have Alliance High Elves when they didn't include them in the original release of the game. It was one of the most obvious races to include - but they decided not to.


You obviously didn't read the quote, which was made almost 8 years ago now (Sept., 2005), in context at all. They didn't say they were against the implementation of High Elves, but rather that they favored the implementation of Gnomes over High Elves.

It was never a case of, "High Elves, NO! Gnomes, YES!". It was more akin to, "High Elves, OKAY! Gnomes, BETTER!".

Blizzard made their choice. They made their stance on it clear, repeatedly.


Oh boy, I can't wait to see which "sources" you cite for this statement.

05/12/2013 07:21 PMPosted by Sylassanna
The High Elves are a big part of the story, and a major part of the Kirin Tor forces. That does not mean they need to be playable. Valkyr aren't playable, either. Dryads aren't playable. Jinyu and Hozen aren't playable.


Neither the Valkyr, Dryads, Jinyu nor Hozen have roles ranging from casually-associated to absolutely-integral to every race on the Alliance -- the High Elves do.

And really, adding an Alliance race almost entirely based on antagonism to their Horde counterparts wouldn't exactly be good for the Alliance. Everything important and unique about High Elves has been given to the Blood Elves, including their culture and their capital city. We don't need the leftovers from Blood Elf development. We need the sort of development Blood Elves got for some of the races we already have.


1. The capital city is a non-issue, mechanically.
2. Their culture is quite different and is becoming increasingly so as time passes.
3. In you're into speculative lore, there are apparently numerous "holdouts" of HE's throughout areas of Lordaeron/Quel'thalas which aren't represented in-game.
Edited by Fyorsing on 5/12/2013 7:42 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Priest
11530
1. The capital city is a non-issue, mechanically.
2. Their culture is quite different and is becoming increasingly so as time passes.
3. In you're into speculative lore, there are apparently numerous "holdouts" of HE's throughout areas of Lordaeron/Quel'thalas which aren't represented in-game.
The culture is the same. The only difference is that they use blue color instead of red.

Neither the Valkyr, Dryads, Jinyu nor Hozen have roles ranging from casually-associated to absolutely-integral to every race on the Alliance -- the High Elves do.
False. All these races have the same relevance as the high elves.
Edited by Serendia on 5/12/2013 7:59 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
14695
05/12/2013 07:57 PMPosted by Serendia
The culture is the same. The only difference is that they use blue color instead of red.


Ah, so Vereesa Windrunner and all of the other self-styled High Elves just really don't like the color red. I see, my mistake.

/sarcasm

False. All these races have the same relevance as the high elves.


The Jinyu have been living with the humans for the past few decades? Who knew?!
The Hozen helped the humans retake bits of Lordaeron after it was destroyed? Interesting!
The Valkyr worked closely with the dwarves to maintain peace in the Aerie Peak? SWEET!
The Dryads offered to monitor the Highborne to help ensure the NE's were safe? News to me!

Edit: You obviously know about as much as Jon Snow...
Edited by Fyorsing on 5/12/2013 8:09 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Priest
11530
Ah, so Vereesa Windrunner and all of the other self-styled High Elves just really don't like the color red. I see, my mistake.

/sarcasm
The only difference is that they were exiled for refusing to consume magic of living creatures. But culture is exactly the same but with different colors.

The Jinyu have been living with the humans for the past few decades? Who knew?!
The Hozen helped the humans retake bits of Lordaeron after it was destroyed? Interesting!
The Valkyr worked closely with the dwarves to maintain peace in the Aerie Peak? SWEET!
The Dryads offered to monitor the Highborne to help ensure the NE's were safe? News to me!
No. But there are races of the alliance and contribute to the faction. The high elves have betrayed the alliance after the second war, and if they could abandon the alliance again (if they had the power).
If you like both high elves, you should know some basics about them: They are a selfish race
Edited by Serendia on 5/12/2013 8:44 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Death Knight
13085
Ah, so Vereesa Windrunner and all of the other self-styled High Elves just really don't like the color red. I see, my mistake.

/sarcasm
The only difference is that they were exiled for refusing to consume magic of living creatures. But culture is exactly the same but with different colors.

The Jinyu have been living with the humans for the past few decades? Who knew?!
The Hozen helped the humans retake bits of Lordaeron after it was destroyed? Interesting!
The Valkyr worked closely with the dwarves to maintain peace in the Aerie Peak? SWEET!
The Dryads offered to monitor the Highborne to help ensure the NE's were safe? News to me!
No. But there are races of the alliance and contribute to the faction. The high elves have betrayed the alliance after the second war, and if they could abandon the alliance again (if they had the power).
If you like both high elves, you should know some basics about them: They are a selfish race


The High elves of the 2nd war were selfish. The High Elves of today are more humble and better themselves to prove they're worth something. Gilneas also "betrayed" the Alliance after the 2nd war. And now they're back.

The High Elves are fine. I'd play one if they became playable. I don't want to play a Blood Elf though, because they are two different things.

High elves are the Elves that stayed loyal to the alliance and refused to consume fel magic.

Blood Elves resorted to fel magic and joined Illidan, then joined the Horde...

Once we get High elves then the Alliance of Lordaeron shall be together once more! More or less...
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90 Worgen Warlock
16740
Incorrect.

The Highborne use outdated magic. Their constructs are fickle and easy to turn against their makers, and the devices they use as magical foci or scrying tools get crummy reception.

If anything, the newer Night Elf mages might be more of a match, since they wouldn't be so hung up on ancient tactics that the Silvermoon and Kirin Tor mages have been building on and improving for nearly ten thousand years now.

There's in-game examples of Blood Elves viewing the Night Elf Highborne with the same mix of contempt and amuzement a computer geek would reserve for someone who insists on using an abacus.


Can you link me those quest just so I can confirm something?

They did.

They decided they wouldn't have Alliance High Elves when they didn't include them in the original release of the game. It was one of the most obvious races to include - but they decided not to.

They decided it way back in WCIII, when they started the entire Blood-Elves-Are-Angry-At-The-Alliance shift.

Blizzard made their choice. They made their stance on it clear, repeatedly.

The people who are saying that, no, we don't need playable High Elves aren't the ones trying to tell Blizzard their business, here.


Well, I guess Blood Elves shouldn't on the Horde either, then. Because they were part of the Horde back in WC3.

Blizz didn't state anything besides specifying a few years ago, back before BC, why they might didn't add High Elves in BC, even though they were in game. Those conditions have changed quite a lot it seems considering the lore developed recently.

And it's funny because I don't remember telling anything to Blizz. I'm discussing a matter, not outright stating it can't happen through rhetoric, without bringing a decent argument to the table, like certain people.

Also, Blood Elves excuse to join Horde were just... bad.

Blaming the entire faction for what one bad apple did? Ignoring the situation, which they were too far to even know what was happening? Convenient plot that stated Night Elves attacking and sabotaging them even though they were not Horde and had absolutely nothing to gain with that? All lame.

The only consistent reason to make them Horde was the support of the Forsaken in Ghostlands. Alliance had no presence there, so it was perfectly reasonable and justified to become allies with Sylvanas.

05/12/2013 07:21 PMPosted by Sylassanna
The High Elves are a big part of the story, and a major part of the Kirin Tor forces. That does not mean they need to be playable. Valkyr aren't playable, either. Dryads aren't playable. Jinyu and Hozen aren't playable.


I will keep it as simple as possible. Nothing has to be done. Nothing needs to be done. You don't even need to play the game nor read anything about it. That's not really a point about... well... anything.

And really, adding an Alliance race almost entirely based on antagonism to their Horde counterparts wouldn't exactly be good for the Alliance. Everything important and unique about High Elves has been given to the Blood Elves, including their culture and their capital city. We don't need the leftovers from Blood Elf development. We need the sort of development Blood Elves got for some of the races we already have.


Funny thing, High Elves came first. They're a race of about thousands of years old. Then, something bad happened and some of them changed a few things, like faction and colors. But for some reason, people insist in talking that the ones who changed, not the ones who remained loyal to their old ways, possess their "culture" and... lol... that High Elves is just an antagonism of the Horde counterpart!
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