Can Battle Healer be Ret Only?

90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
05/18/2013 12:49 PMPosted by Tailias
a clever use of mechanics that should only be used when it benefits the raid.
\

An extra DPS doesn't ? :P
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
I honestly think (at least from a tank POV) the main "problem" with Pali tanks is just how incredibly well they synergize with many of their talents. I have high-level tanks of every tank class, and have tanked a bunch on the PTRs lately. And I just don't feel like anyone has nearly the synergy with as many of their available talents that a Pali gets. Druids are decent (except for the horrendous lvl 90 tier), and monks are "ok" but warriors and DKs seem to have less survivability in mind on the talents (probably because the other three tanks can heal as well).

A good pass through many of the talents could probably help bring tanks in line a bit more. As well as addressing HoP-ing off of boss debuffs (not all 10 mans can field a pali guaranteed).


I would argue that this means that the paladin talent tree is more of a failure than other classes'.

I'm pretty sure at this point Blizzard is balancing us around using Sacred Shield, even if they don't want that to be the case. Holy Avenger is hard to compare to, although the level 60 and 90 trees are pretty well balanced based on how often I swap those around depending on the fight (save execution sentence).

Warriors get most of their tools from their specilization, and can more or less freely swap around the talents as they wish for a myriad of reasons (though Enraged Regen is pretty hard to beat in most situations as it functions as an extra tank cd.
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100 Pandaren Monk
9250
I'm pretty sure at this point Blizzard is balancing us around using Sacred Shield, even if they don't want that to be the case. Holy Avenger is hard to compare to, although the level 60 and 90 trees are pretty well balanced based on how often I swap those around depending on the fight (save execution sentence).


Sacred Shield is an outlier because EF costs hopo and SH doesn't affect yourself. These could be fixed and it would be a much more even tier (though SS probably remains best because it's an absorb, though it could just absorb less than the others heal).

HA is an outlier because it's so concentrated, which tanks want in a raid. If we needed overall reduction DP becomes great, often creating it's own mini cooldown of 3-4 procs in a row. It's just less reliant than the other two. SW I think would need a pretty big boost to compete.

Other than those two I can't immediately think of any other tiers where one talent is super amazing and the others suck. ES could be boosted since it's only dps or only heals (and a single target) but that gives it benefit as well. Maybe giving it a burst heal or burst damage at the last tick.

I would argue that this means that the paladin talent tree is more of a failure than other classes'.


Other than those two talents I think the Paladin talents have some pretty good options. Each spec works fairly well with the talents (some slightly better than others) and most/all can be used in most parts of the game.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13465
The only problem with Warriors is that their DPS is terrible. Even on fights that seem to play to their strengths they're near the bottom. Generally speaking, on 25H BM Monks will do perhaps 40% more damage than Prot Warriors, depending on the fight, which will cost your raid anywhere from 30-60k dps. Certainly a 25H raid could make up 40-50k lost dps, but why put yourself in a position where you'd have to?

I agree that Clemency is only a problem insofar as clearing tank-swap forcing debuffs is attached to it.
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100 Pandaren Monk
19680

The vitriol being tossed at prot paladins has really become quite old with most of it being so far off base it's not even funny. Everyone is complaining about paladin damage, healing and threat but completely ignoring the fact that Brewmasters are better than prot in every category. 25H can be argued as prot tends to pull slightly ahead in damage.


They aren't. I'm sorry.

I tanked almost all of our heroic 25h at least once and never I put the paladin on the backseat. And boy I do know how to play a brewmaster.

Brms can pull a hell lot of dps in fights that play with their strenghts (or now that the amount of gear available allows raids to bruteforce mechanics, which greatly inflate tank's dps). But that's about it.

the ONLY fight. ONLY fight, in progression where monks were favoured because they did something to make the fight easier was Lei Shen 25h.

Because of one simple thing (and it wasn't their dps): Provoke giving the target a small sprint. Which is a small "perk" that monk's taunt have. Simply because it made Lei Shen run faster between platforms, which lowered the time he spent aoe dmging the raid.

Paladins, as a class, currently provide the best "support" to the raid. It's not that the tank spec itself is extremelly powerfull .. but it's just a class that is excellent to stack on 25h. They just have too many usefull things:

- devotion aura is a cooldown used on pretty much every fight on 25h. It's not that it's mandatory, but it's good to have. It's one of those cases "The more the merrier".

- clemency is also something that is great to have more, because there are MANY moments that sacrifice/bop are usefull. My raid have 5 paladins ... that's 10 of each Hand. That basically means we have Hands up all the time.

- Hand of Purity is extremelly strong. Many fights have dot based mechanics, and again, having more of those available, the better.

- Hand of protection is trivializing a LOT of mechanics in this tier.

- Battle healer for prot paladins currently provide the best "support heal" from all tanks.

what do I bring? l33t dps .. guard from the statue (while usefull, it's not nearly as good as battle healer) .... and that's it. And a mediocre raid heal.

If you put my performance as a tank and compare with the paladin, we are very balanced. Our dmg is overall balanced (I do a little more), but we take equivalent dmg, require about the same heal ... so tank X tank we are very balanced.

But the paladin is just WAY more usefull to the group.

Again, it's not that prot paladins are broken in terms of "tankiness", but they are one spec of a class that is much more usefull than any other class atm. In this tier, there are 3 classes that are ahead of the rest in their respective roles:

1) rogues are by far the best melee:
- best single target dmg
- best survivability by eons (feint trivializes a lot of mechanics + cloak of shadows)
- best raid utility of all melee dpsers: smoke bomb.

2) warlocks are by far the best caster:
- best multidot dmg
- one of the highest single target dmg, and it's currently the caster class that is most versatile to handle different kinds of dmg. There's basically a warloc spec that is godlike for every fight.
- Portals are EXTREMELLY usefull this tier.
- only they provide healthstones.

Paladins are the warlock/rogues of the tank specs. Check Method's interview, while this tier is excellent, their take on raid composition is basically "for melee bring rogues, if you need more melee, bring more rogues .... for casters bring warlocks .. if you need more casters bring more warlocks".

Our raid is progressing with 2 paladin tanks (I'm the 3rd tank atm, since I rather be dps for the time being), and there's not a single fight that we go "oh man, it would be so much better if we had a druid/warrior/dk/monk for this". There's not a single problem to stack 2 prot paladins for progression ... even if I was a 3rd paladin, it wouldn't be a problem (maybe for gearing, but not that much on 25 man).

But if you stack for example, 2 warriors .. they'll be able to tank the boss just as well as any paladin .. but their raid utility will pale compared to the raid utility that 2x paladins would bring.

THAT is the difference.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
So that's kind of in the vein of "Prot Pallies were intended to use Seal of Insight, a seal they hadn't touched since ever and they had always been using the DPS seal since at least Wrath"

tl;dr developers have literally no idea what to do with paladins

[e] http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7339014025?page=6#105
That response sums it up better than I can, I guess

paladin design can go... away somewhere


I remember when I picked a paladin in vanilla because I believed the original game book that said "blah blah blah... they are a tank overall."

I dunno why I stayed with it through vanilla + 2 expansions, but at least aside from an entire expansion of 969 it was pretty fun in wrath.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620

The vitriol being tossed at prot paladins has really become quite old with most of it being so far off base it's not even funny. Everyone is complaining about paladin damage, healing and threat but completely ignoring the fact that Brewmasters are better than prot in every category. 25H can be argued as prot tends to pull slightly ahead in damage.


They aren't. I'm sorry.

I tanked almost all of our heroic 25h at least once and never I put the paladin on the backseat. And boy I do know how to play a brewmaster.


uh... your WW logs are nice but your BM logs look like someone that doesn't care about their damage at all...

you've hit the 50th percentile on a heroic boss all of twice this tier...

good monks are scary good, I'm quite confident the only reason they come behind paladins in any meaningful metric is simple lack of quantity

also unholy dk is right there with rogue in almost every measure (yeah, smoke bomb beats amz and our grips and stuff, but we have value there, too)... unlike lock which is just leaps and bounds above everything, especially other casters

anyway, you don't have anything to worry about, monks aren't getting touched as long as nobody's playing them

edit: also multi-bannerness is delicious
Edited by Lailala on 5/19/2013 4:40 AM PDT
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But... that doesn't change the validity of his arguments.



They aren't. I'm sorry.

I tanked almost all of our heroic 25h at least once and never I put the paladin on the backseat. And boy I do know how to play a brewmaster.


uh... your WW logs are nice but your BM logs look like someone that doesn't care about their damage at all...

you've hit the 50th percentile on a heroic boss all of twice this tier...

good monks are scary good, I'm quite confident the only reason they come behind paladins in any meaningful metric is simple lack of quantity

also unholy dk is right there with rogue in almost every measure (yeah, smoke bomb beats amz and our grips and stuff, but we have value there, too)... unlike lock which is just leaps and bounds above everything, especially other casters

anyway, you don't have anything to worry about, monks aren't getting touched as long as nobody's playing them

edit: also multi-bannerness is delicious
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
a player misjudging his own output, and comparisons of other classes, definitely discredits his arguments based upon direct comparison between himself and another, and how the comparisons... compare >.>

did that make sense?

my point is that I think he's underestimating how strong and useful monks really are
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100 Pandaren Monk
19680


They aren't. I'm sorry.

I tanked almost all of our heroic 25h at least once and never I put the paladin on the backseat. And boy I do know how to play a brewmaster.


uh... your WW logs are nice but your BM logs look like someone that doesn't care about their damage at all...

you've hit the 50th percentile on a heroic boss all of twice this tier...


did you check those logs to see what is going on?

H Tortos.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i1cussxi9gyxfuxf/sum/damageDone/?s=8138&e=8566

I'll give you a hint of what I do that entire fight: Dizzying Haze. And it's related to bats.

H Ji-kun.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i1cussxi9gyxfuxf/sum/damageDone/?s=8138&e=8566

We do a 3 tank strat, since the enrage/dps is not even a factor in this fight. My job? to pick my nose for 1m30s and then go the the nests that spawn the big hatchling to tank him.

I don't even tank Ji-kun .. I tanked near the end, for like 30 sec, because one of the tanks died.

H Primordius.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zdsu61l2qdvh4dwl/rankinfo/?s=3850&e=4296
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zdsu61l2qdvh4dwl/sum/damageDone/?s=3850&e=4296

feel free to analize this one .. this I actually tanked. But maybe if you do that fight in heroic in the future, you'll understand why "dps" is the last thing that will cross your mind.

H Council
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-e6kh77la745vaxt4/sum/damageDone/?s=8868&e=9394

this wasn't a kill but we wiped with the boss on 4% .. so it's basically a kill. And I had to tank this day because the other tank missed the raid.

feel free to analize that and the other attempts as well.

And no ... I don't try to rank on fights as a a brewmaster. Hence why I have absolutely no problems in doing 5k dps while kiting torto's bats so that my raid can ignore that aspect of the fight (ironically, I got ranked with 6k dps in our 1st kill, because 99% of monk's logs were of kiting). I don't mind calling the fight on Ji-kun and doing the 3rd tank job .. I like killing bosses. Ranking as a tank is more of a freebie.

and if you put me toe on toe with the other tank on the same duty ... that's a whole other story.

People should care less about ranking, and care more about actually killing the boss.

Speaking as someone who is very close at completing this tier, tank dps didn't matter in any fight for us. 100% of our wipes were because of execution.

100% of them.

Not a single fight we went "ok, we need to switch tanks because we need more dps". If dps was lacking and we weren't beating enrage timers (which was the case on H horridon while it was serious business), it was because we were doing a poor job as a group, and worked on fixing it. And killed the boss.

If switching a tank for 20-50k dps gain allows you to beat enrage timers and kill a boss, I can speak with the authority of the pope: your dps is doing a poor job and not playing at their fullest.

And suprisingly, you seemed to ignore that the whole argument was about paladin's utility as a class ... not their dps performance. Because you know, it's kinda irrelevant which tank is doing 20-30k more dps in terms of how successfull your raid can kill a boss.

I mean, do you know why monks deal more dmg? I"ll tell you the reasons.
- crit build. Which directly impact on how much offensive power they have.
- they take more dmg with that build .. not a LOT more dmg, but yes, it's a build worse to heal than a mastery build. So they are basically sacrificing defensive power, for ofensive power.
- the top monks usually have heroic fights on farms by a long time, and bruteforce them in ways that cause them to take a lot more dmg, which inflate their vengeance ... and allows them to do much more dmg

check the logs. Seriously, check the logs of monks with high dps .. you'll see that they take a hell lot of dmg.

In a normal-way-is-supposed-to-be-tanked fight, monks don't pull crazy numbers ahead of other tanks .. they simply do "a little more dmg". And again ... his argument was that monks beat paladins on everything .. which we clearly don't. We simply do more dps. All the rest of the paladin's toolkit is more usefull than what any other tank has.
Edited by Leeflow on 5/19/2013 9:18 AM PDT
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LoL at damage rankings determining if a tank is good...
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100 Pandaren Monk
19680
LoL at damage rankings determining if a tank is good...


my point exactly.

I don't have any particular problem with paladins because our raid knows best to choose a tank based on what he's actually good at.

Monks are excellent at kiting bats? so kiting bats it is for me. We won't try a suboptimal strategy (for our raid composition) just so I can look pretty at wol.

We know that our paladin and me are 100% capable of handling any boss in this tier, in terms of "tankness": surviving the boss, putting out descent dmg, not stressing our healers, and being able to handle whatever boss mechanics. In this sense, tanks are very balanced (outside of isolated scenarios that plays with a tank strenght)

Prot paladins are excelling in things that are not related to how powerfull they are as tank. They are excelling because in this tier, the rest of the paladin class toolkit, is extremelly usefull/powerfull.

The only reason they nerfed battle healer was that the healing output of prot paladins was indeed over the top (not only compared to other tanks, that usually contribute with a mediocre raid healing, but in general, they were putting almost 75% of the healing that a pure healer gives) ... bringing 2 prot paladins, also brought 1 "extra healer" as a freebie.

It's the exact same reason that got attonement nerfed for disc priests. If a class can heal as much as any other class (in this case, disc priests), and still do 50-80k dps, that puts them in a massive advantage compared to other healers. Having 2 of them = having 26 players in the raid.

Again, it's not that prot paladins are extremelly OP as tanks, they arent .. but they currently are miles ahead any other tank in terms of "raid benefits". They simply bring too much to the table. Either be raid cds, raid utility or raid heal .. those aspects are above what they should be.

Imo, some of that raid utility should be spec-related.

For example, if battle healer was ret only, if Hand of purity/clemency was holy only, if devotion aura was prot only ..

if prot paladins didn't bring all those things at once, nobody would be complaining. The problem is that they are a tank as good as any other tank, BUT they are much more usefull to have.
Edited by Leeflow on 5/19/2013 11:02 AM PDT
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90 Orc Warrior
10130
Prot paladins are excelling in things that are not related to how powerfull they are as tank. They are excelling because in this tier, the rest of the paladin class toolkit, is extremelly usefull/powerfull.


Prot paladins are also excelling in things that are related to how powerful they tank. This mainly has to do with the power of SHoR and Sacred Shield.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
I understand some situations call for a priority on survival and don't call for a serious level of dps... however...

http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/azralon/Leeflow#Jin'rokh_the_Breaker-25H-1101

^ explain this and you can say things like "Boy I know how to play a monk," and compare yourself to well played paladins

I tanked with a monk for all of last tier, I understand perfectly what they're capable of, I spent pretty much the entire tier feeding him vengeance. Sometimes for damage, sometimes for his healing and support that scale off it just like pallies' does.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15535
05/18/2013 10:25 AMPosted by Tailias
We can bubble and BoP off debuffs - and most fights have some sort of tank switch debuff that can be dealt with this way.


I think you are mistaken about "most fights"

Jin'rokh - I don't know if you can bubble off the tank debuff, but it happens too frequently for you to get any benifit from it

Horridon - yes you can bubble it off, but the fight still requires 2 tanks.

Council of Elders - Don't know for sure if you can bubble off frigid assault or not, but even if you can thats hardly overpowered.

Tortos - no such debuff for this fight

Megaera - DS/HoP do NOT remove any of the tank debuffs on this fight, DS doesn't even prevent the damage from the Ignite flesh dot.

Ji-Kun - DS/HoP do NOT remove talon rake.

Durumu - I'll give you this one.

Primordius - I guess this one on normal, but on heroic you need the extra damage on the adds so you can't.

Dark Animus - Not sure if you can bubble off anima ring but a dps/healer eating the orbs is probably still a better idea.

Iron Qon - I suppose you can have this one aswell.

Twin Consorts - Maybe a slight benifit during phase 2 but not game changing.

Lei Shen - Another one that I haven't tested, but I' pretty sure phase 3 would destroy you if you tried to solo tank.

So 3 maybe 4 out of 12, that's hardy "most fights"
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100 Pandaren Monk
19680
I understand some situations call for a priority on survival and don't call for a serious level of dps... however...

http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/azralon/Leeflow#Jin'rokh_the_Breaker-25H-1101

^ explain this and you can say things like "Boy I know how to play a monk," and compare yourself to well played paladins

I tanked with a monk for all of last tier, I understand perfectly what they're capable of, I spent pretty much the entire tier feeding him vengeance. Sometimes for damage, sometimes for his healing and support that scale off it just like pallies' does.


If your argument is going to be nitpicking fights that I didn't have a stellar performance, then we wont have much of a discussion. Because my argument is about what paladins bring to the raid. Not wol performances.

If you actually look at the last jin'rokh log you'll see theres over 30s without shuffle. Simply because I dc'd.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-e6kh77la745vaxt4/details/15/?s=199&e=482
or don't you find it odd that I have a 30s gap on shuffle twice? Do you think I simply thought it was a good idea to not use BoK, or pretty much any skill for that matter and simply stood there auto attacking the boss?

And there's a reason why that site is called e-peen bot. Specially for tanks, you don't measure perfomance based on their dps output.

Tank dps is directly related to "how much vengeance you feed that tank". So yeh if your strat involves that, great. But our strats don't. And they are getting us new bosses every week. For a group that raids 4x a week for 3h30 sessions, I don't think we are doing badly.

We rather do bosses in a safe way, that we know we can 1-2 shot them, so that we have enough time to progress on the last bosses that we still didn't kill, instead of going "hey guys, lets do some shenenigans so I can swim on vengeance and get ranked =D". And no, for this tier, tanking is not my main spec. My tank gear is basically my dps set, with a couple of different pieces with heavy expertise reforge/gems on them. I don't even have 2p on my tank set.

And following your logic (that I shouldn't be discussing things related to performance, If I don't get super high ranks), considering you only got ranked on lolnormal fights with mediocre performance, you shouldn't even be talking about those things with me.
Edited by Leeflow on 5/19/2013 1:26 PM PDT
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
Sorry leef, I really didn't mean to be attacking you, that's why I said your logs look like someone that doesn't care about their dps, not one that's incapable.

My point was just that I don't think pallies are massive leaps and bounds above everyone else the way disc priest and holy pally are to the other healers, or locks are to everybody. I don't think it will take much nerfing at all to bring them back to us, and I don't think it would take that much in terms of buffs to put the rest of the tanks on par instead, either.

Not pushing your dps and abusing your vengeance in all the applicable ways just leaves you missing out on some of what you have to offer, hence my point about comparisons.
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*POTENTIAL DERAILING ALERT*

I honestly think that "vengence" should not affect attack power, threat modifiers should be adjusted to make it so that it scales with character sheet AP. and since as iLvL increases, AP will increase. Or truly make it boost your threat gen based on damage intake.

Abilities that currently scale from vengence can still retain the damage -> output model, just without the middle-man of attack power.

Bringing a tank for a significant portion of dps on an encounter is not "proper" game design if you ask me. Although I *do* think every tank should be able to sacrifice survivability in order to contribute dps if there is a lull in the fight to allow that, but cheesing vengance to pull stupid high numbers is just... stupid...
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13465

The vitriol being tossed at prot paladins has really become quite old with most of it being so far off base it's not even funny. Everyone is complaining about paladin damage, healing and threat but completely ignoring the fact that Brewmasters are better than prot in every category. 25H can be argued as prot tends to pull slightly ahead in damage.


They aren't. I'm sorry.

Lots of stuff.


Now wait a sec, a lot of the stuff you mention are things that are Paladin specific, but not Paladin Tank specific. Like Clemency and Hand of Purity (which I agree are both great, but its worth remembering that they're talents on the same level. You can't have both of them in the same fight, you have to pick one or the other) and Devo Aura, if your raid is bringing 5 paladins to every raid, any tank can be solo tanking Durumu or staying on Horridon the entire time, not just Paladins.

You say that Paladin tanks are balanced with Monk tanks, but then you say that virtually all of the utility a Paladin tank can bring can also be brought by another Paladin. Is having that 5th Hand of Purity really all that helpful? And I've also decided that I just don't buy Monk bubble is vastly inferior to Battle Healer. If its a big AoE situation and everyone's taking 100k/second, a steady stream of 20k heals from the paladin tank is nice and all, but its trivial compared with having a 300k monk bubble on someone. In the leadup to the big AoE, BH has been helping top everyone off, but the healers were probably working pretty hard to make sure that happened anyway, whereas the Monk bubble is stacking on that one person, accumulating, adding value *over and above* merely healing them to full.

That one person isn't going to die, and even better, a pretty decent chunk of healer AoE healing these days are smart heals which are going to totally ignore that person. Shammy Chain Heals, Paladin Light of Dawn, etc aren't going to be affected.

And I think saying Lei Shen is the only fight Monks shine on is absolutely ridiculous. For starters, kiting Tortos bats says "hi". Its the best way to handle that part of the fight and, sure, Druids and Warriors can technically do this as well, but its vastly easier on a Monk, and Paladins and DKs can't do it at all.

For Lei Shen, I can't speak for Heroic, but I know that the top Horde group on our server does 25N Lei Shen with their Monk solo tanking most of Phase 1 since Monks can shrug off the melee-range Decapitates. I don't know that they're the only tank class that can do it, but I certainly can't.

On Council, Monks, along with Druids, sport high Avoidance levels, making tanking Malakk a lot smoother to tank, to say nothing of the Median monk chipping in 55k dps more than the median Paladin and 86K ahead of the median warrior. The Monk-Warrior gap in dps is *bigger* than the gap between Demo locks (the best Lock spec for that fight) and MM Hunters, the worst dps spec on that fight. Note that Demo locks aren't the overall highest dps spec for that fight, because BM Monks are. And you can't just dismiss tank damage as something that's irrelevant and able to be made up by the dps, or you have to say the same thing about tank healing as being something good healers should just be able to make up. They both matter.

And, yes, Paladin Sacred Shield looks sexy on WoL, but if WoL treated Monk or Druid avoidance, or Warrior Blocking, as absorbs, Paladins would look a lot less attractive.
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100 Pandaren Monk
19680
*POTENTIAL DERAILING ALERT*

I honestly think that "vengence" should not affect attack power, threat modifiers should be adjusted to make it so that it scales with character sheet AP. and since as iLvL increases, AP will increase. Or truly make it boost your threat gen based on damage intake.

Abilities that currently scale from vengence can still retain the damage -> output model, just without the middle-man of attack power.

Bringing a tank for a significant portion of dps on an encounter is not "proper" game design if you ask me. Although I *do* think every tank should be able to sacrifice survivability in order to contribute dps if there is a lull in the fight to allow that, but cheesing vengance to pull stupid high numbers is just... stupid...


I agree that vengeance effect on survivability is a necessary evil. It's pretty much the only way of making our defensive tools to scale based on the dmg we are taking (unless you make everything follow the Deathstrike rule, but that would be extremelly stupid).

But I agree 100% that it's side effect on dmg is problematic. I don't mind that tanks are sitting "in the middle" of recount. I don't think that is a problem at all.

But when tanks can be top dpsers on most fights, due to vengeance shenanigans, I think that is a big deal.

For example, our Iro Qon kill this week:

dmg done:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zdsu61l2qdvh4dwl/sum/damageDone/?s=7774&e=8426

healing done:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zdsu61l2qdvh4dwl/sum/healingDone/?s=7774&e=8426

I'm not point this because it's a paladin. It just happens to be a paladin (if it was a DK doing that, a monk, or any other tank class, I'd say the same thing). I'm pointing this because I think it's not a very good balance spot, to have a tank top dps (brm are also top dps in several 25h fights due to vengeance scalling), and have the same tank heal as much as a healer.

Seriously, despite the fact that our rest shaman died miserably and didn't heal for quite some time, we essencially did this fight with 7 healers. The 7th being our 26th player in the raid. I understand he didn't do 80k hps on the raid. But even healing done on himself (as absorbs, self heal) it directly translate into less healing required from the healers ... which can be redirected to the raid.

In some fights monks also heal a lot. And I think Statue of the Ox is horribly tunned. Not because the heal it does, but how it can be extremelly useless. It's just number inflation.

For example, if I get 300k AP, I'll make a ~700k guard on myself. Great, perfectly justified .. I'm taking a lot of dmg, but I'm also putting up a great defensive CD. All fair.

But then you look at my guard statue procs on the raid, and they'll also be 700-800k shields. Why? That's imbecile. Why the hell our dpser needs a 700k shield just because I'm taking a lot of dmg?
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