Can Battle Healer be Ret Only?

90 Draenei Monk
6795
05/18/2013 11:00 AMPosted by Tailias
It's not far off base at all, but you're right that Brewmasters are right up there with Prot Paladins in the top tier of tanks. One of the main reasons BrM is so strong is because they have the flat physical damage reduction as well - Paladins have Shield of the Righteous for a core mechanic, and Monks have Stagger. Both are based off of Mastery and our other stats all synergize and feed into them as well.


Well, it doesn't actually reduce any damage unless we use Purifying Brew. So we still take most of it.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
*POTENTIAL DERAILING ALERT*

I honestly think that "vengence" should not affect attack power, threat modifiers should be adjusted to make it so that it scales with character sheet AP. and since as iLvL increases, AP will increase. Or truly make it boost your threat gen based on damage intake.

Abilities that currently scale from vengence can still retain the damage -> output model, just without the middle-man of attack power.

Bringing a tank for a significant portion of dps on an encounter is not "proper" game design if you ask me. Although I *do* think every tank should be able to sacrifice survivability in order to contribute dps if there is a lull in the fight to allow that, but cheesing vengance to pull stupid high numbers is just... stupid...


I agree that vengeance effect on survivability is a necessary evil. It's pretty much the only way of making our defensive tools to scale based on the dmg we are taking (unless you make everything follow the Deathstrike rule, but that would be extremelly stupid).

But I agree 100% that it's side effect on dmg is problematic. I don't mind that tanks are sitting "in the middle" of recount. I don't think that is a problem at all.

But when tanks can be top dpsers on most fights, due to vengeance shenanigans, I think that is a big deal.

For example, our Iro Qon kill this week:

dmg done:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zdsu61l2qdvh4dwl/sum/damageDone/?s=7774&e=8426

healing done:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zdsu61l2qdvh4dwl/sum/healingDone/?s=7774&e=8426

I'm not point this because it's a paladin. It just happens to be a paladin (if it was a DK doing that, a monk, or any other tank class, I'd say the same thing). I'm pointing this because I think it's not a very good balance spot, to have a tank top dps (brm are also top dps in several 25h fights due to vengeance scalling), and have the same tank heal as much as a healer.

Seriously, despite the fact that our rest shaman died miserably and didn't heal for quite some time, we essencially did this fight with 7 healers. The 7th being our 26th player in the raid. I understand he didn't do 80k hps on the raid. But even healing done on himself (as absorbs, self heal) it directly translate into less healing required from the healers ... which can be redirected to the raid.

In some fights monks also heal a lot. And I think Statue of the Ox is horribly tunned. Not because the heal it does, but how it can be extremelly useless. It's just number inflation.

For example, if I get 300k AP, I'll make a ~700k guard on myself. Great, perfectly justified .. I'm taking a lot of dmg, but I'm also putting up a great defensive CD. All fair.

But then you look at my guard statue procs on the raid, and they'll also be 700-800k shields. Why? That's imbecile. Why the hell our dpser needs a 700k shield just because I'm taking a lot of dmg?


is this guy serious?
Edited by Lailala on 5/19/2013 3:32 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Monk
6795
Isn't it awesome when you end up posting in the wrong thread?
Edited by Qhi on 5/19/2013 4:18 PM PDT
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100 Pandaren Monk
21380

Now wait a sec, a lot of the stuff you mention are things that are Paladin specific, but not Paladin Tank specific. Like Clemency and Hand of Purity (which I agree are both great, but its worth remembering that they're talents on the same level. You can't have both of them in the same fight, you have to pick one or the other) and Devo Aura, if your raid is bringing 5 paladins to every raid, any tank can be solo tanking Durumu or staying on Horridon the entire time, not just Paladins.


yes, I'm aware of that.

Like I said, I don't think the protection paladin is far off. They might take less dmg, monks might do more dmg, but overall I don't think anything is broken. It's just more about a fine tunning of +5-10% there, -5-10% elsewhere.

The class abilities just sinergize very well with this tier.

For example, In the previous tier there was nothing wrong with those abilities, and as far as I'm aware, they didn't get buffed. If next tier there aren't many fights were debuff stacking can be cleared by HoP, or hand of purity doesn't shine as much .. I doub't anyone would even remember them.

Tbh I don't think any change is urgent necessary. If the next tier also have fights like that, then yes .. I think we'll have headaches as well.

And I think saying Lei Shen is the only fight Monks shine on is absolutely ridiculous. For starters, kiting Tortos bats says "hi". Its the best way to handle that part of the fight and, sure, Druids and Warriors can technically do this as well, but its vastly easier on a Monk, and Paladins and DKs can't do it at all.


DKs can do it, a couple of players that joined our guild from one of the top guilds in the server, after they broke up. They did h tortos with a Blood DK kiting. It's just as viable as monks doing.

For Lei Shen, I can't speak for Heroic, but I know that the top Horde group on our server does 25N Lei Shen with their Monk solo tanking most of Phase 1 since Monks can shrug off the melee-range Decapitates. I don't know that they're the only tank class that can do it, but I certainly can't.


The top 25m in your server uses a prot war/dk for tanks on all their last Lei Shen kills .. so if you can point which one you are talking about.

But I can give you one example (from the top ally guild of your server) of the strat you are talking about:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2grnoo3k4bu905eg/sum/damageDone/?s=5793&e=6244

tank 1: 165k dps
tank 2: 39k dps

this isn't exactly any "woah" ... It's just .. kudos. What benefit being able to take decapitate in the face will give you? Inflate vengeance, that's one. But you still have to bring a 2nd tank because of p3. So you'll just end up having 1 tank on p1 doing 230k dps and the 2nd tank doing 70k dps, instead of 2 tanks doing 150k, is not a real .. gain. Because the 2nd tank is still there present in the fight. He's just useless for half of the fight.

It's different than iro qon and durumu where you can really replace a tank with an extra dps. And yes .. any other tank can single tank those fights .. as long as you have paladins.

On Council, Monks, along with Druids, sport high Avoidance levels, making tanking Malakk a lot smoother to tank, to say nothing of the Median monk chipping in 55k dps more than the median Paladin and 86K ahead of the median warrior. The Monk-Warrior gap in dps is *bigger* than the gap between Demo locks (the best Lock spec for that fight) and MM Hunters, the worst dps spec on that fight. Note that Demo locks aren't the overall highest dps spec for that fight, because BM Monks are. And you can't just dismiss tank damage as something that's irrelevant and able to be made up by the dps, or you have to say the same thing about tank healing as being something good healers should just be able to make up. They both matter.


In those same fights, there's 2 tanks. They are not being single tanked. You have 1 tank doing 300-400k dps and the other tank doing 100k dps. Instead of 2 tanks doing 200-250k dps.

In all those kills you are talking about, you are just feeding vengeance to one tank .. great, but again, you are also carrying a dead weight tank in the process.

I just don't see any incredible benefit in doing something like that.
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100 Pandaren Monk
9385
No more pve nerfs for pvp players.


Battle Healer nerf has nothing to do with pvp.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
the one guy is saying nerf it for prot (remove it completely) so it can be strong for ret pallies in pvp
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
14805
Leeflow,

My bad, its not Requiem, its Dyslexic using the Monk, they're the top Ally 10-man guild on Drenden. Not sure how I got them mixed up.

Your comment also strongly implies something that I've pondered myself but haven't really been able to test. Monks do top dps, particularly in AoE situations, but its not so much that their sustained dps is overwhelming, its more because their dps is tremendously frontloaded especially in AoE and in low Vengeance situations. This makes Monks a lot more efficient in terms of being able to inflict their dps in fights and gives them amazing burst threat especially on the pull. With zero Vengeance, it takes me 3-4 GCDS to ramp up to about 30k dps, while a zero Vengeance KS can crit for 80-100k (and if the Monk is stacking crit, that's not a rare event).

As someone noted earlier somewhere, Monks and Paladins might even do the same amount of AoE threat over an 8 second period, its just that the Monk does 50% of that damage in the first GCD and then the other 50% over the rest, while the Paladin does about 10% in the first GCD and the remaining 90% over the rest. As a result, in theory they'd do the same damage in the same situation, but in practice the Monk will grab aggro on everything in that first GCD and will see their damage rapidly escalate from Vengeance while the Paladin is left feebly taunting mobs.

That's trash, so who cares, but I think some of it extends to bosses as well. Even single target Monks burst like mofos. So I'm wondering if part of Monks' dps advantage isn't precisely from Monks doing more dps as from guilds recognizing the obvious and, if a Monk is present, generally having them pull, do the AoE tanking job, etc. The Monk does more damage to begin with, but the situation is exacerbated by assigning tank roles. So, if Monks would only do 5% more damage innately, but are consistently the pullers and AoE tankers, they might show up as doing 15% more damage. Part of that gap is them simply being better equipped to handle AoE situations and getting a bigger boost than other classes (though Druids and to a lesser extent Warriors are strong AoErs as well), but a big chunk could also be, as you suggest, the Monks' strengths allowing them to effectively steal DPS from other tanks.
Edited by Wrathblood on 5/20/2013 4:51 AM PDT
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
yeah cuz it's not like every mob that appears in a 5000000 mile radius of any boss fight instantly runs for the pally tank like it has an infinite range mocking banner or anything
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1 Human Hunter
0

The vitriol being tossed at prot paladins has really become quite old with most of it being so far off base it's not even funny. Everyone is complaining about paladin damage, healing and threat but completely ignoring the fact that Brewmasters are better than prot in every category. 25H can be argued as prot tends to pull slightly ahead in damage.


They aren't. I'm sorry.

I tanked almost all of our heroic 25h at least once and never I put the paladin on the backseat. And boy I do know how to play a brewmaster.

Brms can pull a hell lot of dps in fights that play with their strenghts (or now that the amount of gear available allows raids to bruteforce mechanics, which greatly inflate tank's dps). But that's about it.

the ONLY fight. ONLY fight, in progression where monks were favoured because they did something to make the fight easier was Lei Shen 25h.

<rest of post>


I'm not sure you know how to play your class as well as you think you do if you think BrM dps is low or not better than paladins...

This is a ranking for 25H DPS

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/100/14/60/p75/#0000000000000000000000011111000000

Here is 10H

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/100/14/60/p75/#0000000000000000000000011111000000

Devo aura is on a long CD and this isn't a problem for 10's or 25's as most raids will have plenty of classes that can bring raid cooldowns so that argument is invalid.

10 BoPs? Why in the heck would you ever need 10 BoPs? Prot paladins don't have to take clemency when they can take UbS. Clemency is great for those times when you need multiple sacs or BoPs to save someones life. Hardly a mandatory or broken talent.

HoPur was nerfed to the ground already. Nice talent for some niche fights but hardly overpowered or even worthy of mention.

You know what. At this point you are just rambling off paladin spells and talents hoping something will stick or at the least, deflect attention away from you as a monk.

A class in needing of a nerf is one that completely takes raiding off the hinges or forces raids to shelve other classes in preference. This is not the case with paladins. Anyone that has any sort of common sense knows that you are not required to have a paladin in the raid, nor are you required to have a paladin tank.

Paladins need tweaking but I don't think you have the slightest clue where they should. You are probably in the camp that thinks the class needs a blanket nerf.

The problems that exist right now have to do with Vengeance, Sacred Shield and its scaling with haste and in the eyes of the community, the ability to remove debuffs negating a tank swap.

The classes that need tuning down are Prot Paladins and Brewmasters

The classes that need buffs are Warriors and DK's in various ways. Warrior mitigation is fine but their damage is pathetic.
Edited by Elsea on 5/20/2013 6:51 AM PDT
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
just fyi, we can see your pally tavine

your war too lol
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1 Human Hunter
0
So what. That doesn't change anything.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
1. spec score is more valuable than overall dps, neither is as valid as you think

2. You can't just discount all your abilities and then pretend since you said they don't matter that they actually don't.

3. Good luck succeeding in heroic raiding with no prot or holy pallies at all. I'm sure there's a few groups, but man it must suck to be them.

4. The imbalance was bad enough that paladins were massively more successful tanking the fights than other classes, and in many cases still are. We're level 90 now, it takes quite a while to get there, and leveling sucks. The "catchup mechanisms" are a complete joke. It's not a matter of sitting tanks for other tanks, it's a matter of groups without pallies banging their heads into brick walls for huge amounts of time.

5. You're telling a successful heroic raider he doesn't know what he's talking about when you haven't cleared normals.

In the end, monks are about as strong as pallies, but really not quite. They won't get touched though, even if they end up better than pallies, as long as barely anyone is playing them.
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100 Pandaren Monk
21380
Leeflow,

My bad, its not Requiem, its Dyslexic using the Monk, they're the top Ally 10-man guild on Drenden. Not sure how I got them mixed up.

Your comment also strongly implies something that I've pondered myself but haven't really been able to test. Monks do top dps, particularly in AoE situations, but its not so much that their sustained dps is overwhelming, its more because their dps is tremendously frontloaded especially in AoE and in low Vengeance situations. This makes Monks a lot more efficient in terms of being able to inflict their dps in fights and gives them amazing burst threat especially on the pull. With zero Vengeance, it takes me 3-4 GCDS to ramp up to about 30k dps, while a zero Vengeance KS can crit for 80-100k (and if the Monk is stacking crit, that's not a rare event).


What you said is basically true. I'm not sure how paladin's aoe ramp up, but monk's is pretty much like this:
- you have a very big burst with keg smash
- you use rushing jade wind (which hits like a truck a buff sck dmg for 8 second)
- you use spinning crane kick 2-3x.
- KS again.

Our aoe rotation have 30 sec cycles. In those initial 8 seconds it's the time we deal most dmg. ~60-70% of our dmg is condensed in those 8 seconds. After that is simply SCK spam (which is pretty much a channeled dot in terms of dmg)

but the thing is .. on the current fights with aoe. This heavy burst is exactly what counts. And during those 8 seconds no class in the game can match monk's aoe. (even windwalker's burst aoe is extremelly strong)

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i1cussxi9gyxfuxf/sum/damageDone/?s=9741&e=10178
compare my graph to the dk's in terms of aoe. Both of us were in adds duty for our magaera heroic strat.

Paladins and DKs for example, they have a constant aoe dmg/threat, that after it's initial ramp up, deals a constant good dmg.

Monks have insane dmg .. moderate dmg .. insane dmg .. moderate dmg. If you check monk's aoe dmg graph, you'll see that it's always high spikes, then it lowers again .. KS > RJW > SCKx3 combo is extremelly powerfull.

So yes, in the current fights where adds last 10 seconds ... our aoe is much more efficient. Because we throw like 70% of a 30sec of aoe, in those initial 10sec. On fights like windlord for example, that is a constant aoe during the entire fight, it evens out.

And to an extent, that applies to single target as well. KS IS bursty. It's our "shield slam". If you see, all of our skills hit for 50% of KS dmg. Jab for example hits for 50k with high vengeance. So every 8 seconds we have a "BAM! THREAT", followed by skills that really make me sad in terms of dmg.

At low vengeance, KS has the potential of stealing aggro ... at high vengeance? not a chance in the world .. unless the other tank is doing a horrible job. Simply because early on, 10% threat to steal the boss back to you means like .. 1mi. threat.

But later on the fight .. that 10% means 50mi. threat. It's impossible for 1 skill alone to do that much.


You know what. At this point you are just rambling off paladin spells and talents hoping something will stick or at the least, deflect attention away from you as a monk.


you know that the same could be said about you, right?

The classes that need buffs are Warriors and DK's in various ways. Warrior mitigation is fine but their damage is pathetic.


warrior dmg? 100% agreed.

DKs? not at all

10 BoPs? Why in the heck would you ever need 10 BoPs? Prot paladins don't have to take clemency when they can take UbS. Clemency is great for those times when you need multiple sacs or BoPs to save someones life. Hardly a mandatory or broken talent.

HoPur was nerfed to the ground already. Nice talent for some niche fights but hardly overpowered or even worthy of mention.


if you have 5 paladins, like we do, 2 of them can take clemency and 3 of them purity. And you have 4 bops/sacrifice and 3 purities.

Purity was nerfed to the ground? unless all tooltips are not updated, it's still 70% for 6 seconds. On a mere 30sec cd.

Council, primordius, magaera, Iro Qon, say hi. All those fights have extremelly painfull dot mechanics that purity almost trivialize. And since all of them but iro qon (where the pally tank can handle his own stack reset), all paladins take purity .. and can rotate purity several times, every time someone gets a dot.

but like I said .. I don't see the point of nerfing those skills if the next tier don't have so many fights that benefit them.
Edited by Leeflow on 5/20/2013 8:58 AM PDT
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1 Human Hunter
0
05/20/2013 08:36 AMPosted by Lailala
5. You're telling a successful heroic raider he doesn't know what he's talking about when you haven't cleared normals.


That means squat when it comes to playing the class or knowing the limitations. I choose to raid casually.

05/20/2013 08:37 AMPosted by Leeflow
you know that the same could be said about you, right?


Touche

05/20/2013 08:37 AMPosted by Leeflow
DKs? not at all


Their damage is fine, their mitigation is the problem, at least from what I have seen. It can be argued that DKs are in an "OK" position but the community seems to disagree.

05/20/2013 08:37 AMPosted by Leeflow
if you have 5 paladins, like we do, 2 of them can take clemency and 3 of them purity. And you have 4 bops/sacrifice and 3 purities.


I still don't see where you would need that many bops other than the rare occasion to save someone from an incoming physical attack. Multiple sacs and HoPur are very nice to have. This again doesn't mean that the talent is unbalanced.

Hand of Purity has no effect on damage dealt by effects that ignore immunities. Key word here being immunities such as paladins chaining HoPur during Council heroic. I said it's good for niche fights. I'd argue that it trivializes a mechanic. It doesn't last long enough and I don't think the damage from those fights is that dangerous to where you need to chain it with multiple paladins (edit).
Edited by Elsea on 5/20/2013 8:56 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
14805
Leeflow,

My bad, its not Requiem, its Dyslexic using the Monk, they're the top Ally 10-man guild on Drenden. Not sure how I got them mixed up.

Your comment also strongly implies something that I've pondered myself but haven't really been able to test. Monks do top dps, particularly in AoE situations, but its not so much that their sustained dps is overwhelming, its more because their dps is tremendously frontloaded especially in AoE and in low Vengeance situations. This makes Monks a lot more efficient in terms of being able to inflict their dps in fights and gives them amazing burst threat especially on the pull. With zero Vengeance, it takes me 3-4 GCDS to ramp up to about 30k dps, while a zero Vengeance KS can crit for 80-100k (and if the Monk is stacking crit, that's not a rare event).


Monks are great at doing dmg to aoe stuff that don't need to be tanked. Our aoe is extremelly bursty.

What you said is basically true. I'm not sure how paladin's aoe ramp up, but monk's is pretty much like this:
- you have a very big burst with keg smash
- you use rushing jade wind (which hits like a truck a buff sck dmg for 8 second)
- you use spinning crane kick 2-3x.
- KS again.

Our aoe rotation have 30 sec cycles. In those initial 8 seconds it's the time we deal most dmg. ~60-70% of our dmg is condensed in those 8 seconds. After that is simply SCK spam (which is pretty much a channeled dot in terms of dmg)

but the thing is .. on the current fights with aoe. This heavy burst is exactly what counts. And during those 8 seconds no class in the game can match monk's aoe. (even windwalker's burst aoe is extremelly strong)

Paladins and DKs for example, they have a constant aoe dmg/threat, that after it's initial ramp up, deals a constant good dmg.

Monks have insane dmg .. moderate dmg .. insane dmg .. moderate dmg. If you check monk's aoe dmg graph, you'll see that it's always high spikes, then it lowers again .. KS > RJW > SCKx3 combo is extremelly powerfull.

So yes, in the current fights where adds last 10 seconds ... our aoe is much more efficient. Because we throw like 70% of a 30sec of aoe, in those initial 10sec. On fights like windlord for example, that is a constant aoe during the entire fight, it evens out.

And to an extent, that applies to single target as well. KS IS bursty. It's our "shield slam". If you see, all of our skills hit for 50% of KS dmg. Jab for example hits for 50k with high vengeance. So every 8 seconds we have a "BAM! THREAT", followed by skills that really make me sad in terms of dmg.

At low vengeance, KS has the potential of stealing aggro ... at high vengeance? not a chance in the world .. unless the other tank is doing a horrible job. Simply because early on, 10% threat to steal the boss back to you means like .. 1mi. threat.

But later on the fight .. that 10% means 50mi. threat. It's impossible for 1 skill alone to do that much.


You're correct on Paladin AoE threat. Ideally you get down Consecration before things start, but from a dead start in an AoE situation, a Paladin has a bunch of fairly soft hitting abilities (Consecration scales ok with Vengeance but not nearly as well as it used to and its really feeble without Vengeance) which collectively rise to mediocrity when you add in that you've got Consecration ticking along in addition.

Our ace in the hole is AS which does hit hard and at range, making it a lot like Keg Toss with a longish CD in exchange for doing actual damage. Its fantastic for picking up mobs or even small groups of mobs that wander off with its bouncing. But if you're just firing it off randomly into the scrum of mobs around you its just random extra damage on three mobs (3 target cleave). If you have *A LOT* of mobs on you and you stack Avoidance you can start doing interesting things with it thanks to Grand Crusader, but that requires gearing thats otherwise sub-optimal and is only good for situations that almost never come up.

I can't really speak for DK AoE.

For Monk AoE, yes, its bursty, but that doesn't mean its not also very strong sustained. If you go back and look at Windlord on 25H when it was current (looking at current numbers is hilarious but not really relevant. 25H Windlord BM median dps at present is 1.2M dps with 1 parse and DKs did zero with 0 parses), Warriors started out dominating that fight, but you can see the Monk median dps scores getting better and better as people figured out how to use them. By the end, Monk median dps was a good 15% higher than Paladins who were #2 and 60% higher than DKs who were last.

In terms of threat, I certainly agree about high vengeance situations. Unless you've got a fight with threat drops, once you're past the first tank swap or two no one should be stealing threat from anyone. No one has anything that hits *that* hard.
Edited by Wrathblood on 5/20/2013 9:09 AM PDT
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
dk damage only looks ok because as soon as we possibly can we ditch all our tank gear and go full dps, we get absolutely trash dps in actual mastery builds
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Their damage is fine, their mitigation is the problem, at least from what I have seen. It can be argued that DKs are in an "OK" position but the community seems to disagree.

Separate issue, and not really the point of this thread AFAICT.

I can't really speak for DK AoE.

Low burst, excellent spread, requires something like 7.5% uptime to sustain 75% of our full AoE damage, lasts a long time without maintenance.

(Blood Boil for diseases + D&D = 65-75% of our AoE DPS, and takes two GCDs every 30s.)
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100 Pandaren Monk
21380

For Monk AoE, yes, its bursty, but that doesn't mean its not also very strong sustained. If you go back and look at Windlord on 25H when it was current (looking at current numbers is hilarious but not really relevant. 25H Windlord BM median dps at present is 1.2M dps with 1 parse and DKs did zero with 0 parses), Warriors started out dominating that fight, but you can see the Monk median dps scores getting better and better as people figured out how to use them. By the end, Monk median dps was a good 15% higher than Paladins who were #2 and 60% higher than DKs who were last.


Oh I agree with that. It's not nearly as high as the initial seconds, but sck does a good job on the "sustained threat/dmg" field.

the only issue is that SCK hits as hard as diseases, deep wounds and such. BUT it's channeled. While channeling sck, we are doing notthing else. And most of those dots are just .. there. Breath of fire dot don't work on a lot of things, and unless the dmg isn't hihg, you just don't have enough Chi to use Breath of Fire constantly.

Usually for aoe, you do the whole KS, blackout kick, keep shuffle up and stuff, and squeeze 1-2x SCK every few seconds. Channeling non-stop is not very healthy.

From my experience, unless the dmg is not that high, I find it better to simply "pool" my resources (stack elusive brew, stack shuffle etc), and unload everything and go full dmg in those 10 seconds of the RJW debuff .. then take a 10-20sec of a more conservative rotation, getting my defenses up, and then unload everything again.

Simply going balls on SCK, drops your defensive power as much as a DK spamming Blood Boil at the expense of deathstrikes, instead of mixing Deathstrikes with blood boils. So, imo, it's only viable if the dmg is not threatning.

But yeah ... this derailed the thread by a long shot lol
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8170
If youre using Insight while ret, youre doing it wrong. Censure damage too strong.
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