Is there such a thing as too much haste ?

90 Human Paladin
7295
I know this discussing already happened, but is there a point where balancing out Haste with Mastery becomes good for Protection Paladins ? Haste boosts SotR uptime, but Mastery boosts its damage reduction.

So really, do we have a sort of haste soft cap we should aim for, stack a bit of mastery before going back to haste to make it more efficient overall ?
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100 Tauren Paladin
12015
There's a soft cap at 50%, where haste no longer reduces the GCD, but I haven't seen any math to support actually stopping haste stacking at that point (nor any math related to it either way, though).

Realistically, your haste is "capped" at the point where you can no longer generate Holy Power faster. In a perfect scenario, that's the point where you're generating one Holy Power per second. However, if there's a point where you simply can't improve your Holy Power generation, whether that's due to lag or reaction time or whatever, switching to mastery at that point may be worth considering.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
17470
Mathematically there should be an ideal ratio between uptime% and how "big" SotR is, though whether that actually translates to an ideal ratio between haste and mastery is another question. The ideal ratio between the stats may work out where you need a massive amount of haste before you need more than base mastery amounts. Or if they scale differently enough there may not be a point at all.

Also, such a ratio would really only apply to constant damage intake, and wouldn't really take into account how more haste or more mastery affect SotR's impact on spikes.

In short, math, complicated math.

I'd say if you're using the haste build then stack haste until you are comfortable with the speed of the rotation and feel that you can always have a SotR for when you need it, and then go for more mastery.
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90 Human Paladin
7130
The idea behind stacking mastery isn't related to Shield of the righteous. It's due to the increased block chance. The default SoTR is powerful enough and the idea of haste stacking is to get it up as often as possible. No great tanks care about dmage taken. They care about smoothing damage taken. You want to go pure Mastery for more reliable blocks or pure haste for high SotR uptime. Middle ground is only good on paper/recount but creates more potential for spikes.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
05/09/2013 11:36 AMPosted by Capital
The idea behind stacking mastery isn't related to Shield of the righteous. It's due to the increased block chance.

o.O

Even stacking Mastery, you can't get block chance anywhere near high enough to be considered reliable. What you CAN do is very strongly mitigate reasonably predictable spikes of incoming damage, more strongly than a haste build can, at the cost of letting more unmitigated hits through the rest of the time.

If the datamined SotR reduction on MMO-Champion is real, I wonder if that might make haste a little less favored and mastery a little more...?
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90 Human Paladin
7295
If the datamined SotR reduction on MMO-Champion is real, I wonder if that might make haste a little less favored and mastery a little more...?


I'm guessing we'll have to wait for a few sims using both Control/Master and Control/Haste or even hybrid builds to know for sure. With my current gearing, I can switch in and out of both as I have a lot of +Haste+Mastery pieces, so it wouldn't be an issue for me to balance them out.

Though I have to say even at 25% haste, the rotation still feels sluggish. I can't even imagine how people with no haste can tolerate playing.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8695
Your answer to Ctrl/Ha, Ctrl/Ma, and Ctrl/HM lies here.

http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/03/26/sacred-bleu/
Edited by Perkee on 5/9/2013 3:00 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
8390
Do remember that the sims show theoretical max, performing with flawless rotation, instant reactions and zero latency. That wouldn't be a problem if the stats degraded equally (so that someone at, say, 80% efficiency got 80% of the value from avoidance, mastery, and haste), but unfortunately some stats degrade worse compared to others as you go down in rotational efficiency.

At the opposite end from the sim is the guy who goes AFK while tanking. Okay, of course no tank in their right mind would do that, but let's just have this thought experiment to see how much the stats lose their value:

* Avoidance doesn't care what Mr. AFK does, so it doesn't degrade at all. It will keep doing its thing (as long as the boss doesn't get behind him).
* Mastery still gives him more block chance but loses a good part of its value (ShotR/WoG bonuses).
* Haste is completely useless because he's not exploiting the faster GCDs (he isn't even using them in the first place).

This is the most important thing that current sims don't tell you: haste is a high-maintenance stat and its value is most sensitive to rotational efficiency. So much so that somewhere between Mr. AFK and the sim (in other words, between 0% and 100% efficiency) there's a point where the value of haste dips below avoidance and mastery.

That means you need to have a hard look at your personal performance to answer any questions about haste. Look at your logs, look at your uptime, and ask yourself if you're getting as much value from haste as you think.

My personal rule of thumb is that anyone who can't break 35% ShotR uptime is better off leaning towards mastery. Why that number, you might ask? Because that's what a guy with zero haste can do with around 85% efficiency. If you can't beat that while haste stacking, better forget about the stats first and work on your rotation instead.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8510
Does the guy with zero Haste ever cast Word of Glory?
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I have a quick question in regards to gearing. I am switching to full haste setup but a lot of the pieces I can get are haste\crit and not haste\mastery. Should I hold out and continue upgrading out slowly as I find the haste\mastery pieces or just get my hands on those crit pieces and reforge to whatever?

All of the gearing I did was before I understood the value of haste ; ;
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100 Tauren Paladin
12015
05/10/2013 09:12 AMPosted by Lasthero
Should I hold out and continue upgrading out slowly as I find the haste\mastery pieces or just get my hands on those crit pieces and reforge to whatever?

If it's a major item level boost, yes. Dodge and parry are weak, but not worthless; if the choice is between two items of the same level, with one having crit and the other avoidance, the avoidance piece will probably be better.
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90 Human Paladin
7295
@choz, your argument would hold more weight if you didn't use fights like Jin'rokh to judge uptime on SotR ;). Not everyone spams it during lightning storm or when affected by static burst or getting thrown just to pad uptime.

The discussion here is theoritical.

@Perkee that is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for the great article.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8695
@Perkee that is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for the great article.


Your welcome :)
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Awesome, thanks for the reply Keten!
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100 Tauren Paladin
8390
05/10/2013 10:11 AMPosted by Berith
@choz, your argument would hold more weight if you didn't use fights like Jin'rokh to judge uptime on SotR ;). Not everyone spams it during lightning storm or when affected by static burst or getting thrown just to pad uptime.


Oh it's you lol. Sorry, but Jin'rokh's one of the best fights to gauge uptime this tier. He doesn't hit that hard or have a bursty special you'd want to pool for, and you're almost constantly in range (except on heroic if your strat involves dancing on the grates). If you can't manage a decent uptime on this guy you'll be doing much worse for the rest of T15.

I also don't agree that off-tanking is an excuse to slack, but if you feel differently, just slice up WoL to show only the times you're actually tanking. I've yet to see someone with poor overall uptime on this boss pull great numbers while tanking, but maybe you'll surprise me!

Does the guy with zero Haste ever cast Word of Glory?


If you're casting WoG enough to make a noticeable dent on your uptime, something's going wrong. T15 2-pc isn't worth sacrificing ShotR to maintain.
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90 Human Paladin
7295
05/11/2013 06:38 PMPosted by Choz
Oh it's you lol. Sorry, but Jin'rokh's one of the best fights to gauge uptime this tier.


Sorry, but it's really not. When I get hit with static burst and the other guy taunts, I don't use SotR so I don't pull aggro with my vengeance stack (I really tone down on damage, even stopping for a good 10 seconds). 2nd when getting thrown, there's a good duration to that stun and run back.

And during Lightning Storm, I also don't use SotR. So no, it's a bad fight to judge it, and you thinking it's not doesn't mean everyone adopts your playstyle. Just get over the fact you tried to attack me out of nowhere for no reason completely off topic to the fight in question and you'll just get some of that credibility back. Until then, I consider you one of the most toxic elements of this forum to date with that post you did.
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90 Human Paladin
7790
I never stop using sotr on Jin'rokh.... I even stand in the puddle while im tanking him using sotr, the other tank takes it ill use Salv 2x so i can stand in it even longer. Its not a good fight to gauged your uptime though.

Horridon, Tortos, ji-kun(n) or Durumu are great fights to test your uptime out. I keep Horridon the entire time, but there is a point where hes too far killing my uptime lol.

Tortos thats an easy 60% uptime imo.

Durumu is an easy solo tank fight. I usually dps thru the shroud phase and keep 60% uptime as well.

when i started watching my uptime it was 30%, with gear and fixing my own bugs i can make 70% uptime on some fights now.

Now for the question, while gearing i kept my Sotr % around 45-47%. With gear i try to keep it around 50%. I never choose mastery over haste!!!!! my sotr buffed now is 52% w/ haste is 32.71%.
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100 Tauren Paladin
8390
Yeah, I'd rather look at a Tortos (on boss), Durumu or Twins log but Jin'rokh is my next choice if those aren't available. I prefer it to Horridon because of the adds (unless you stay on the boss full time).

05/12/2013 09:37 AMPosted by Rubert
Now for the question, while gearing i kept my Sotr % around 45-47%. With gear i try to keep it around 50%. I never choose mastery over haste!!!!! my sotr buffed now is 52% w/ haste is 32.71%.


Pretty much the same for me, and why I'm not surprised there's hints of ShotR base reduction nerf (even though it's only datamined ATM). Haste prot doesn't really have to worry about ShotR strength between the raid buff and the native mastery on our gear.

Wonder how high it gets for mastery stackers?

05/12/2013 06:06 AMPosted by Berith
When I get hit with static burst and the other guy taunts, I don't use SotR so I don't pull aggro with my vengeance stack (I really tone down on damage, even stopping for a good 10 seconds).


You're a pally. You have ways to keep going full throttle after a swap (and you don't even need to use Hand of Salv).

05/12/2013 06:06 AMPosted by Berith
2nd when getting thrown, there's a good duration to that stun and run back.


You're a pally. You have ways to minimize that downtime (you can be back on the boss 1-2 seconds after you land).

05/12/2013 06:06 AMPosted by Berith
And during Lightning Storm, I also don't use SotR.


You're a pally. Your ShotR would help kill the boss while proccing Battle Healer during a heavy damage phase, but you'd rather not use it just because?

05/12/2013 06:06 AMPosted by Berith
So no, it's a bad fight to judge it, and you thinking it's not doesn't mean everyone adopts your playstyle.


Guess we have to agree to disagree about Jin'rokh then. Like I said, if you think the overall figure is unfair, slice up your WoL for the times you're actually tanking.

I'm always open to corrections and improvements of my playstyle, but you need to have some logic, not some stuff that amounts to not using all your class abilities and not helping to kill the boss when he isn't hitting you.

05/12/2013 06:06 AMPosted by Berith
Just get over the fact


What, I didn't even realize you were the same guy until you mentioned it. It's not like you're the only person to look at sims and go "yay haste!" and stack a stat they can't support with their rotation.

you tried to attack me out of nowhere for no reason completely off topic to the fight in question and you'll just get some of that credibility back. Until then, I consider you one of the most toxic elements of this forum to date with that post you did.


Yeah, I'm pretty toxic to your delusions about your tanking skills aren't I? If you think "your 26% uptime on Jin'rokh is low" is an attack, I'm not sure what to say. Do you always get this hissy whenever someone says things you don't like to hear?

Just because you don't like what I say doesn't make it off-topic. I mean in that other thread, you were nitpicking your pieces based on haste, which is pretty silly when it's not your best stat to begin with. I think it's common sense that if you're going to compare gear pieces, the first thing you do is figure out your stat priority. Haste can be anywhere from your best stat to your worst stat (after hit/exp), and you need to look at your rotation to figure out where it is.

It will never be your best stat if you'd rather find excuses for poor uptime instead of debugging it (I like Rubert's term for it).
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100 Human Paladin
13775
I had a poem about haste that I posted once, I'll have to dig it up.

Found it

Haste, haste, a wonderful stat
The more you forge, the faster they splat
The faster they splat, the better you'll raid
So stack that haste, don't be afraid!


It was actually for ret, but it can apply to tanking depending on your playstyle and such.
Edited by Bravehearth on 5/13/2013 9:10 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
7130

When I get hit with static burst and the other guy taunts, I don't use SotR so I don't pull aggro with my vengeance stack (I really tone down on damage, even stopping for a good 10 seconds).


As mentioned, pallies don't need to restrain themselves. (But salv is garbage.)
Macro Righteous fury before your taunt. So when you taunt you always have threat on.
Bind a cancel aura for your threat and hit it when you don't want threat. Done.
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