Grognard, where art thou?

90 Tauren Paladin
4240
Question...

You once told me to use 476 Final Orders over 483 Vortex, because the flat haste beat the flat strength and Vortex has a stupid ICD.

I feel like I've seen you with Final Orders but if that isn't the case then disregard this. Why do you use Relic of Xuen over it? Is It better than Final Orders in some way? Does the flat strength and strength proc of Relic outperform the flat haste and strength of Final Orders?
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
1:1 strength is better, so Xuen's strength/strength is better than LFO's haste/strength. Haste is only better than strength on gems, where rating stats have double the budget.
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90 Tauren Paladin
4240
Oh... So why is 483 Vortex worse than LFO? This whole baste to strength thing has been pretty vague to me this whole expansion.

Do strength gems overtake haste gems at any point?

Is it ever worth using one item over another if one loses you haste but has higher strength, or vice versa?
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
I did use Final Orders up to a couple weeks back when I benched it because I was desperate for an upgrade. >_<

What Cayse said, though. It takes literally twice the amount of haste to equal strength. Final Orders' proc has a somewhat greater duration, but it's a slightly weaker proc and the static haste on Final Orders does not exceed the amount of flat strength on the DMR:X.

Also, Vortex is bad due to more than those simple relationships; the crazy ICD means that all that haste averages out to even less strength over time. Brutal Talisman has a crazy ICD, too (which I frickin' despise), but the amount of strength for which it procs is delicious and I do need the expertise.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
05/15/2013 06:18 PMPosted by Lohkaitirn
Oh... So why is 483 Vortex worse than LFO? This whole baste to strength thing has been pretty vague to me this whole expansion.


An LFR Vortex procs for the rough equivalent of 3k strength, the same as a 476 DMR:X or LFR Final Orders, but the ICDs of the trinkets have to be factored in. 3k strength for 20 seconds on a 45s ICD is sweet; the same on a 75s ICD is pretty crappy.

05/15/2013 06:18 PMPosted by Lohkaitirn
Do strength gems overtake haste gems at any point?


Shouldn't, no. Strength gems are superior early in gearing because there is not sufficient access to haste to bring the value ratio to where haste has a significant impact.

Is it ever worth using one item over another if one loses you haste but has higher strength, or vice versa?


Yes. But you can't just look at strength and haste; you have to account for the total value of all the non-stam stats, gems slots, and socket bonuses to make a full comparison and proper decision. Simply put, though, if you divide the amount of lost haste by two and you gain more strength than that number, it's probably a better piece.
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90 Tauren Paladin
4240
Alright then, so last question... Sitting on some gold, should I go for Xuen? Or just pray for a spark this week x_x... Or, is it not that much better?

Also was just wondering about the gems because I saw someone (you) post a response in another post along the lines of that and I got really confused... Something like "way beyond the point where haste gems are superior to strength"?
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
Haste-biased gemming (read: selecting gems specifically with haste) appears to have no point where it loses value. This is because a Quick gem is 320 rating, where a Bold is 160. With better gear, you can forge into more and/or find more native haste than you can at earlier gear levels. The better you gear, the stronger the value of haste because you can get more, meaning it will have a much greater impact on Sanctity of Battle to reduce your GCD and ACDs.

Spark, on paper, is really strong because of the involved. No ICD, 7.3k strength proc, huge chunk of native haste. I don't know how well it performs practically as I have not yet been fortunate to get one, but that and Feather are projected as our BiS trinks. My opinion would be to wait on the DMR:X and save all your coins until 5.3 when the fail-roll protection is going to be implemented. And then you can start praying.

...As I have been for a sodding helm... >_<
Edited by Grôgnárd on 5/15/2013 6:41 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
12015
Alright then, so last question... Sitting on some gold, should I go for Xuen? Or just pray for a spark this week x_x... Or, is it not that much better?

Spark is, like, magnitudes of order better. (Well, it's definitely much better, anyway.)

Also was just wondering about the gems because I saw someone (you) post a response in another post along the lines of that and I got really confused... Something like "way beyond the point where haste gems are superior to strength"?

Haste gemming only overtakes strength gemming at a certain gear level. It depends on your actual gear, though (and you're probably way beyond that point now).
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90 Tauren Paladin
4240
Haste-biased gemming (read: selecting gems specifically with haste) appears to have no point where it loses value. This is because a Quick gem is 320 rating, where a Bold is 160. With better gear, you can forge into more and/or find more native haste than you can at earlier gear levels. The better you gear, the stronger the value of haste because you can get more, meaning it will have a much greater impact on Sanctity of Battle to reduce your GCD and ACDs.


One last, last question... Is it worth dodging certain set bonuses (such as crit, maybe even haste?) to gain that extra 160 haste from a yellow gem rather than being forced to use a green/orange?
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90 Tauren Paladin
4240
Haste-biased gemming (read: selecting gems specifically with haste) appears to have no point where it loses value. This is because a Quick gem is 320 rating, where a Bold is 160. With better gear, you can forge into more and/or find more native haste than you can at earlier gear levels. The better you gear, the stronger the value of haste because you can get more, meaning it will have a much greater impact on Sanctity of Battle to reduce your GCD and ACDs.

Spark, on paper, is really strong because of the involved. No ICD, 7.3k strength proc, huge chunk of native haste. I don't know how well it performs practically as I have not yet been fortunate to get one, but that and Feather are projected as our BiS trinks. My opinion would be to wait on the DMR:X and save all your coins until 5.3 when the fail-roll protection is going to be implemented. And then you can start praying.

...As I have been for a sodding helm... >_<


Also... Fail roll protection? What? Why was I not informed of this?

Thanks a bunch for your time, you're really quite informative.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
One last, last question... Is it worth dodging certain set bonuses (such as crit, maybe even haste?) to gain that extra 160 haste from a yellow gem rather than being forced to use a green/orange?


Okay, let's look specifically at your shoulders and do some math. We're only going to look at one gem for the red socket, since you would obviously use a haste gem in the yellow socket by default. For weight coefficients, we'll say W(s)=1, W(h)=.53, and W(c)=.46 for strength, haste, and crit respectively - made up numbers, but relatively accurate as that's about what I have been seeing in my gear.

So, the difference in haste between a Fierce and a Quick gem is 160, which translates to ~85 strength (160 * .53). Obviously, that's more than the 80 strength you gain from a Fierce gem - but wait! With the orange gem, you match the socket and gain its bonus of 120 crit, which is ~55 (120 * .46). So the real value of the orange gem is 133 (55 + 80), and that more of a gain than the 85 from the pure haste gem.

I don't mean to patronize you, but the simple illustration serves to get the gist across as easily as possible...And that's also how I look at it, in simplest possible terms.

05/15/2013 06:44 PMPosted by Lohkaitirn
Also... Fail roll protection? What? Why was I not informed of this?


Uses of charm coins that yield gold are supposed to add a stacking increase in the chance to receive loot until such time as a coin yields loot. A somewhat weak attempt to break bad luck streaks, but it's better than nothing.

Thanks a bunch for your time, you're really quite informative.


No prob, man; glad to be of service.
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