SUPER LOW ACTIVE POPULATION - HELP BLIZZARD

90 Night Elf Death Knight
9565
Pls guys, do something, we have been hit VERy hard by the overall drop in players.

We are all VERY much effected, its almost impossible to pug anything due to lack of players. the vast majority of experianced raiders have tranfered off the realm.

Suggestions: ??
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90 Human Death Knight
15160
Yeah it sucks, transferring off is my only option. Soon, very soon.
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100% agree and can't afford to transfer 11 toons!
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Let's talk about this in ONE thread instead of dividing it up into two...

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8796570962?page=1#8
Edited by Phaydre on 5/12/2013 9:05 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
13595
100% agree and can't afford to transfer 11 toons!

Are you currently looking to raid?
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Lifegiver raids with me when we get a chance to raid
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90 Human Paladin
12840
I hear ya Emo. It's getting increasingly difficult to pug on Darrowmere. Started with MoP last fall, going downhill ever since. I remember back in Cata even as DPS on my rogue I could log on and get into a DS raid inside 30 minutes as a rule. Now lucky if it doesn't take you 2 friggin hours to put together a pug sometimes. Last night I spent 40 minutes looking for a tank. A few times we've just abandoned a pug for lack of folks.

And yeah it hurts losing people to realm transfers. About ten that I know of. I ran with all of them, good raiders each of them.

As far as solutions I would like to see Blizz offer free realm xfer to us for at least one or two of our toons. My preferred solution would be combining lower pop realms (if possible) That way we don't add to the congestion of the popular higher pop realms eg Lightbringer and Stormrage meaning even longer waits to log in and more difficulties for gathering profs and various achieves
Edited by Jederos on 5/13/2013 1:30 PM PDT
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05/13/2013 01:27 PMPosted by Jederos
It's getting increasingly difficult to pug on Darrowmere. Started with MoP last fall, going downhill ever since. I remember back in Cata even as DPS on my rogue I could log on and get into a DS raid inside 30 minutes as a rule.

You are remembering the end of Cata, when everyone was geared and had downed the bosses in DS multiple times already, PLUS the bosses had been nerfed to the bone, so everything was on farm mode and a pug could handle it.

This is a new expansion with new content. MoP raid bosses haven't been nerfed anywhere near to that extent yet. Pug players are still gearing up and haven't killed the bosses on normal mode more than a couple times. People know they're facing a wipe-fest in a pug right now and they aren't joining them when they're advertised through Trade.

I keep telling you guys that you're blaming and focusing on the wrong things, but it's obvious nobody wants to hear that. The "problem" isn't just Darrowmere's realm size. There are a ton of factors causing you to not be able to pug in a timely fashion and a ton of things that would have to be different in order for you to down bosses.

Carry on, though, I guess. Not like anything I'm saying is registering anyway...
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90 Human Paladin
12840
You know Phaydre I wasn't going to say anything to you but you seem really determined to come in to this (and the other) thread and put us all in our place

It's getting increasingly difficult to pug on Darrowmere. Started with MoP last fall, going downhill ever since. I remember back in Cata even as DPS on my rogue I could log on and get into a DS raid inside 30 minutes as a rule.


05/13/2013 09:27 PMPosted by Phaydre
You are remembering the end of Cata, when everyone was geared and had downed the bosses in DS multiple times already,


Not true. I ran with plenty of people that were new and gearing up, as was I

PLUS the bosses had been nerfed to the bone,


Funny thing is with the present nerf on Tier 14 raids the pugging's gotten even worse

so everything was on farm mode and a pug could handle it.


Maybe for pugs comprising entirely or mostly experienced skilled raiders But it wasn't until the 30% nerf that people started to make it through DS without much trouble (in my experience). I got in at the first nerf around June/July as I recall. Wipes were a big part of raiding then, nerf or not. You have to remember Darowmere was busier back then. You had more new players coming into the raid scene than you do now.

This is a new expansion with new content.


Well we're six months in now and the situation's getting worse Pugging was easier in December-January than it is now for crying out loud. Plus now you got people leaving the realm steadily. I know of two more that just left in the last week one today in fact. I was in the raid scene for DS and I have no recollection of anyone realm transferring let alone the dozen or so people I know who have left this realm. And that dozen or so is just the people I know of.


MoP raid bosses haven't been nerfed anywhere near to that extent yet.


As I said first nerf and the situation's getting worse.

Pug players are still gearing up and haven't killed the bosses on normal mode more than a couple times. People know they're facing a wipe-fest in a pug right now and they aren't joining them when they're advertised through Trade.


Maybe. I hope you're right.

The "problem" isn't just Darrowmere's realm size. There are a ton of factors causing you to not be able to pug in a timely fashion and a ton of things that would have to be different in order for you to down bosses.


You know, maybe you're right. But let me tell you something. You're in a comfortable situation. You're on a steady, successful (relatively) raid team. You don't know what the pugging situation is like. I do. We do. We, I, been in it almost a year now on this realm. Some of us been playing this game for years. Give us some respect here. We're the puggers You're not. Listen to what we're saying. You're going on here for some reason as though we have little or no idea what we're talking about. The irony is that if anyone needs to be educated as to the realities of this situation, our predicament, it's you. You're the one in your (figurative) ivory tower with your solid regular raid team arrogating the right to cool us puggers us on the realities of pugging

like anything I'm saying is registering anyway...


You're not listening to anything we're saying

Second, I missed the part where your Delphic status on all things pugging was conferred on you.

Third, you didn't exactly pique my interest after you insulted some of my friends:

but most of the people who transfer from this realm would be kicked from that pug once their lack of skill became apparent.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8796570962?page=1#8
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If you read everything I have written in my posts with an open mind you would see that I'm not trying to put people in their place, but what I am doing is presenting you with a different & expanded outlook on the reasons why you and many other people are having trouble trying to pug, and presenting ways to change that. Maybe you should stop being so defensive about it. This is a summary of things I have said in my posts, not in the order I said them, but in the order you need to read them:

1) Yes, I get what you're saying about the realm population and agree it would be nice to have more and better players
2) However, I don't think Blizz will fix that anytime soon.
3) Therefore, we need to work with what we have, and we could do better if the people who are here now learned how to play their toon better, worked harder, and worked together.
4) There are raid teams that are struggling with normal mode bosses. How can you possibly expect pugs to be able to down them if the skill level of pugs on this realm doesn't improve?
5) Your expectations are far too high about the effects of merging low population realms or transferring your toon(s) to a different realm.
6) Having a larger population to pug from won't improve the success of pugs (or raid teams) if those people don't have the ability to follow mechanics, or don't have the DPS, healing, and tanking skills needed to avoid a wipe or enrage.
7) Neither merging low pop realms nor realm-transfers will change a person's skill, and skill is VERY important to succeed in high-level (current content) raiding. That applies both when you're on a team and in a pug.
8) Realm-transfers work out very well for former top raiders on Darrowmere because they're good at what they do and people recognize that.
9) However, due to high competition on other realms, average or poor players typically won't see much improvement. They might continue to progress at the same pace, or slower.
10) Players might regret paying for a realm-transfer when things don't work out for them as they hoped, so I'm trying to provide a reality check.
11) It's a FACT that on high pop realms, people with low performance are kicked from pug groups, and there are underperforming people on this realm considering transferring. Stating facts isn't insulting people. Again, stop being defensive.
12) Comparing your ability to succeed in pugs during Cata vs pug'ing in MoP is looking at things with 20/20 hindsight, and comparing apples to oranges.
13) Until MoP content is nerfed, a lot of people are laying low because they don't want to waste time pug'ing when they know the chance of success is low, and this is another part of why you're having trouble putting together pug groups in the first place.
14) People would stop transferring realms if players on this realm started playing better so they could successfully down bosses, but it's going to take some effort on their part.

If I wanted to put someone in their place, I wouldn't spend so much time typing up long and detailed posts. There are much shorter phrases and sentences commonly used on the forums to convey scorn and superiority.

I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to have an opinion and recommendations on the state of pug'ing on Darrowmere, or why the length of time you have spent pug'ing makes your opinon on the subject any more valid than mine. That's ridiculous.

Here's some superiority for you though: I feel confident that I know how to play my class & spec better than many (not everyone, but many) people on this realm. Why? Because I have put DAYS into learning my class and spec, reading the forums, analyzing my performance, watching videos, etc. Being on a raid team doesn't improve your skills unless everyone on the team is constantly telling you how to play your toon better. If 10 people don't know how to play their toon and/or your toon, you're not going to get far. The people who blame their own lack of success and explain away our success with the reasoning that "they're on a team" have no idea how hard I and all of our team members have worked to get to this level, and how hard we work to down bosses. It's an insult. You say "give us some respect here." How about you give US some respect? Otherwise, take my ivory tower and shove it.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
9940
My original realm was darrowmere and i occasionaly like to drop in and see how things are going. phaydre is right. server xfer or merging wont fix things. I have seen plenty of people xfer off and end up quitting wow because of how hard it was to get into a good raiding guild on a high pop server due to being "average". The biggest issue i saw was playing at a sub-par standard was the norm and was accepted as being ok to do so.
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90 Human Paladin
12840
05/14/2013 07:05 AMPosted by Phaydre
I'm not trying to put people in their place


Yes you are. You are acting as though nothing we say is legitimate and you are the one to tell us our reality regarding pugs A strange and somewhat irritating experience as a veteran pugger I must say since you are not at all a pugger being in a comfortable position on an established raid team. Yet you presume to tell us, the verteran puggers, what the true lay of the land is as though we are children who have logged on for the first time never even heard of Darrowmere or something

but what I am doing is presenting you with a different & expanded outlook on the reasons why you and many other people are having trouble trying to pug, and presenting ways to change that


ok fine Point taken about 3 posts ago.

Maybe you should stop being so defensive about it.


Not being defensive. I am attempting to correct your attitude. You are being excessive overbearing and condescending Btw who made you forum moderator:

Let's talk about this in ONE thread instead of dividing it up into two...



http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8796360516#4

This is a summary of things I have said in my posts, not in the order I said them, but in the order you need to read them:


Yes thank you I am well aware of the points you have been making here

1) Yes, I get what you're saying about the realm population and agree it would be nice to have more and better players


Ok. While quantity does not equal quality, you can't help but think a larger player pool will yield a larger pugging base

2) However, I don't think Blizz will fix that anytime soon.


Conjecture, but you're probably right I'm sorry to say.


3) Therefore, we need to work with what we have, and we could do better if the people who are here now learned how to play their toon better, worked harder, and worked together.


You see you keep missing the point The issue isn't talent so much as it is players in sufficient numbers to make pugging current content possible.

Sister, we been working together. You're being unfair, to put it mildly. We have been working hard. Why do you assume we haven’t? This is part and parcel of the weakness, the arrogance and frankly the ignorance of your position. You make unfavourable assumptions about us arbitrarily, acting as though you know all and see all from your ivory tower of being in a regular raid team never having to pug while we puggers down in the trenches have been living this scene, have been working at this now for months and months in some cases years. Flux and I and others have been making an effort every week once or twice at least. As I said our situation has not been helped by the mass exodus of raiders to other realms an exodus which appears to be gaining steam.

Regarding this tedious point you make regarding skill. Sure we all could learn a thing or two to improve our raid performance. And we all need to practice to improve our raiding skill. No one here is arguing otherwise. But we're not that bad Phaydre. Really we're not.

You seem to want to make us the problem here. Your emphasis on our skill is not just irrelevant but approaches ad-hominem given the obvious overarching issue here which is the dearth of and ongoing loss of raiders to other realms and again demonstrates the moral and logical weakness of your position. You have no idea, whether we are are good bad or average players yet you assume the key issue for us is improving our skill as though we are inferior players. This from the all high and mighty position of when was the last time you raided with any of us????

I mean what are you saying with this skill thing of yours? Do you really think that if we the remaining raiders on this realm all became expert raiders that a large number of new players would appear out of somewhere and make pugging on this realm possible?
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90 Human Paladin
12840
4) There are raid teams that are struggling with normal mode bosses. How can you possibly expect pugs to be able to down them if the skill level of pugs on this realm doesn't improve?


Already addressed this skill thing of yours above but let me add that there are still players on this realm that are good enough to attempt ToT although that number is dwindling. Second, how are we supposed to improve our raid skills when half the time we can't get enough peeps together to even enter the instance???


5) Your expectations are far too high about the effects of merging low population realms


Conjecture.

or transferring your toon(s) to a different realm.


As I said I know a number of people who have transferred to other realms eg Stormrage Lightbringer and Proudmoore and while a few of them miss Darrowmere on a personal level they are unanimous in their happiness with the raiding scene on their new servers

6) Having a larger population to pug from won't improve the success of pugs (or raid teams) if those people don't have the ability to follow mechanics, or don't have the DPS, healing, and tanking skills needed to avoid a wipe or enrage. 7) Neither merging low pop realms nor realm-transfers will change a person's skill, and skill is VERY important to succeed in high-level (current content) raiding. That applies both when you're on a team and in a pug.
8) Realm-transfers work out very well for former top raiders on Darrowmere because they're good at what they do and people recognize that.
9) However, due to high competition on other realms, average or poor players typically won't see much improvement. They might continue to progress at the same pace, or slower.


Already addressed this skill "angle" of yours for lack of a better term

10) Players might regret paying for a realm-transfer when things don't work out for them as they hoped,


Hasn't happened yet in my experience. Just a bunch of shiny happy people now in my RealID raiding regularly and gearing up steadily

so I'm trying to provide a reality check.


Thanks sis. Point taken. But I think we all can manage this on our own from here on in. I know we veteran puggers are making a mistake turning away from your worldy council on pugging with your never having to pug being on a regular raid team but I think we'll manage

11) It's a FACT that on high pop realms, people with low performance are kicked from pug groups, and there are underperforming people on this realm considering transferring. Stating facts isn't insulting people. Again, stop being defensive.


Nice backtrack attempt. Fact is you said that friends of mine who have transferred to other realms were such poor players they wouldn't/couldn't hold a place on a pug. Again this from your position of ignorance and arrogance. And the facts simply disprove you. The peeps I know who have transferred are all good players and have all found regular raid teams or are raiding regularly. You maybe should have asked me more about the people I know who have transferred before you put your foot in this one

12) Comparing your ability to succeed in pugs during Cata vs pug'ing in MoP is looking at things with 20/20 hindsight


I don't get his. It's called a comparison. One model you use for compression is to order things chronologically and see which time was better for some pursuit or phenomenon. Happens all the time

comparing apples to oranges.


Are you arguing that all raid tiers are singular and therefore can never be used as a basis to evaluate other raid tiers?

13) Until MoP content is nerfed, a lot of people are laying low because they don't want to waste time pug'ing when they know the chance of success is low, and this is another part of why you're having trouble putting together pug groups in the first place.


Conjecture, but maybe you're right. The problem with this conjecture is that you keep missing is the lack of players on, and exodus of players from, Darrowmere.
I also take issue with your assumption that all or close to all players are reluctant to raid for fear of wipes. Maybe some are. Many others like me were and are prepared to accept wipes as part of the cost of raiding Better to raid and wipe and at least get the xp than to not raid at all. I am not alone in this I assure you
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90 Human Paladin
12840
If I wanted to put someone in their place, I wouldn't spend so much time typing up long and detailed posts. There are much shorter phrases and sentences commonly used on the forums to convey scorn and superiority.


Please. There are many ways to express condescension and imperiousness. You appear to have taken the loquacious route


I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to have an opinion


You had to go there didn't you. As though anyone here were doing anything to restrict your Free Speech. People disagreeing with you is not an infringement on your Free Speech. If you are not prepared for the give and take of debate then don't start the process. You know what they say about the heat in the kitchen

I'm glad we got to this:


Otherwise, take my ivory tower and shove it.


This is the core of the entire issue right here, as it belies your feigned benevolent intentions and reveals what appears to be your true attitude towards us
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I could pick apart everything you just said, but it's not worth it because every other sentence is nonsense about "You don't know anything about skill because you're actually killing bosses. You're not the boss of me. I'll keep defending my position that says adding more fish to a barrel equals a higher chance of finding lobsters." I have made my points, so I don't need to go back and forth with you about those.

Turning existing Darrowmere-ites into better players can be done a lot more easily than convincing Blizzard to merge realms or give hundreds of Darrowmere players a free transfer. People have been asking for both of those things for years and haven't been getting it.

You have 2 choices: Sit here and complain, or take a leadership role in your guild or group of friends or the realm and encourage people to learn more so you guys can go down some bosses. Roth made a post a while ago where he shared some recommended reading materials for people who want to play better. Follow his lead and start using the forum to make this a better realm for PvE instead of a wishlist.

As I said, I'm willing to help people who want to learn more about Rdruid and Boomkin, and I have already helped many people in SFOS. What are you willing to do?
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90 Human Paladin
12840
I could pick apart everything you just said, but it's not worth it because every other sentence is nonsense about "You don't know anything about skill because you're actually killing bosses. You're not the boss of me. I'll keep defending my position that says adding more fish to a barrel equals a higher chance of finding lobsters." I have made my points, so I don't need to go back and forth with you about those.

Turning existing Darrowmere-ites into better players can be done a lot more easily than convincing Blizzard to merge realms or give hundreds of Darrowmere players a free transfer. People have been asking for both of those things for years and haven't been getting it.

You have 2 choices: Sit here and complain, or take a leadership role in your guild or group of friends or the realm and encourage people to learn more so you guys can go down some bosses. Roth made a post a while ago where he shared some recommended reading materials for people who want to play better. Follow his lead and start using the forum to make this a better realm for PvE instead of a wishlist.

As I said, I'm willing to help people who want to learn more about Rdruid and Boomkin, and I have already helped many people in SFOS. What are you willing to do?


Wow lol. You're still on this skill thing now you've added putting words in my mouth. Amazing, I have to say. Total disconnect from the substance of the issue. So unrelated to the core issue you almost have to look at this post of yours not as an addition to the thread in any way but more like an object or a fact of some sort standing on its own, in its own space providing its own context, introduced into the thread from some kind of Kafkaesque source.

I've already addressed the lack of players problem. It is THE problem You don't or won't get that. Yet you seem to think you can talk with credibility on this issue while denying the core problem.

To your "point" lol that more players somehow doesn't equal a larger puggin base I can only refer you at this point to some common sense. It only stands to reason that the more players on this realm the better the chance of pugging

I don't see how you think that there is much chance of turning existing Darrowmites into raiding to the point of being able to create a steady raiding base First of all that's a lot of work without much guarantee of success given how many people are already devoted to their interests eg profs, PvP, leveling toons, questing, grinding rep etc Second, got news for ya. Most people that want to raid are already raiding or working towards it. Precious few on this server. More leaving all the time. Three, what a naive assumption on your part. You just think we can just got out there and create a reliable player base for raiding? There is some chance of getting some people interested in raiding I guess but I am not prepared to spend the time necessary to go around enlisting people and helping them get ready for raiding esp since that is a low odds play at best. And four got more news for ya. Been there done that. As i just said it is a low odds play. I have been able to get a few of my guildies and friends interested but the vast majority of them have not followed through. And I am not prepared to pester these people once they have made it clear they would prefer to do other things. Four, there is no guarantee given the low pop/low interest in raiding on this realm along with the current exodus from this realm, that even if we did turn every potential raider into a raider that doing so would be sufficient to provide a reliable player base for pugging. Five, I do not agree that it is worth my 15$ a month to spend my days going to the considerable time and effort of trying to get people to raid, particularly not when more practical solutions are available eg realm xfer, realm merge. Raiding is to some extent part of what I pay for. It is incumbent on Blizzard to provide an environment which makes pugging current content possible. It is also in their interests to do so as I find it hard to believe they prefer their customers languishing in inactivity on inferior realms esp with the risks of subscription termination that implies. I assume they make raid content for people to experience it. Therefore it is up to them to give us that chance. It should not be available for those lucky few on low activity servers to get access to raid content.

What am I willing to do about it? Good question. Not listen much to people unqualified to speak on the subject prattle from their ivory towers (hint). A realm transfer is an option to be sure. I will suggest to Blizz that they make free realm transfers off Darrowmere an option and I will also suggest to them that they merge Darrowmere with a similar server Because contrary to your reality-defying imperious pronouncements a larger player base means a higher chance of pugging successfully.
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So it's not ok for me to use obvious humor in a 3 sentence summary of your entire argument because it's putting words in your mouth, but it's ok for you to twist my words in every post you make, and proclaim my intention was to put people in their place?

I understand what you consider to be the core issue, but I'm trying to tell you that what you want to happen will not happen, and recommend how we can work around that to accomplish a goal of reviving PvE on Darrowmere. That's what I have been trying to say and do all along, but you don't seem to want to move beyond complaining and trying to make me look bad. You're really only making yourself look bad here, I have to say.

What is naive is you thinking Blizzard is going to lose out on $25 per transfer if all of these people are supposedly transferring.

In the time we have argued this, you could have leveled a toon on a bigger realm about a third of the way to 90. If you can't afford to pay for a transfer, you better get off the forum and get started on that.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
9940
This just might be going out on a limb here but if so many people are having issues why not make a guild and work together on bringing in people that share you're same ideals. It only takes 10 people to raid and more than that have been complaining. Start small, do t14 and lfr, then when you're ready do ToT. What i get when you say you cant pug is: I want to raid whenever i please without comitting to a schedule. Well theres downsides to that and not raiding due to lack of interest or people is one of them.

Blizz wont give you free xfers just accept it and move on. Merging while a possibility will most likely also never happen. So what is remaining is what the individual will do to make the problem better. I'm sure it isnt to difficult to make a forum post asking anyone with the drive to raid to post so and make a group out of that.

There is some chance of getting some people interested in raiding I guess but I am not prepared to spend the time necessary to go around enlisting people and helping them get ready for raiding esp since that is a low odds play at best.

and you wonder why raiding is dying
05/14/2013 01:42 PMPosted by Jederos
It is incumbent on Blizzard to provide an environment which makes pugging current content possible.

blizz doesnt have to do anything besides providing a server for you to play on.

It seems people are opposed to the skill issue but if you think about it the mass exodus that has been going on is directly correlated to lack of skill as a whole(server).
Edited by Ayàno on 5/14/2013 2:43 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
15155
Well said Ayàno.
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