Vengeance change 5.4

90 Tauren Death Knight
14640
"@Ghostcrawler: Going to try Vengeance cap at 30% health (down from 100%) in 10s and 50% of health in 25s. This is a big change, so might be 5.4, not 5.3."

Thoughts?
Edited by Prae on 5/16/2013 10:23 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
Would hope they'd work balancing dependence on vengeance for damage into that patch then...
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Would hope they'd work balancing dependence on vengeance for damage into that patch then...

For the overwhelming majority of people it won't change anything. The cap won't be low enough to cap your Vengeance under normal circumstances.

What it does prevent is stupid things like purposely taking more damage to get Vengeance higher. Which is fine, and actually a good thing.
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
05/16/2013 10:29 AMPosted by Arielle
Would hope they'd work balancing dependence on vengeance for damage into that patch then...

For the overwhelming majority of people it won't change anything. The cap won't be low enough to cap your Vengeance under normal circumstances.

What it does prevent is stupid things like purposely taking more damage to get Vengeance higher. Which is fine, and actually a good thing.


eh... there's several fights where I approach or break 200k vengeance on bosses alone (trash gets me upwards of 500k at times ^.^), though I guess it won't be too huge a detriment. Still, we have no idea how hard T16 bosses will hit on Normal, so it may severely hinder our damage all the same.

And if that is the case, it will be limiting tanks' AM tools, which means its a survivability nerf for most tanks.
Edited by Darpalta on 5/16/2013 10:33 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
05/16/2013 10:31 AMPosted by Darpalta
(trash gets me upwards of 500k at times ^.^),

That falls under "stupid things to generate high vengeance" mentioned earlier.

Still, we have no idea how hard T16 bosses will hit on Normal

If this tier is any indication, not hard enough to even remotely cap anyone.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
Even normal durumu puts me in the 120s.

Tortos isnt even the hardest hitting heroic and im seeing 170.

T16 will easily push cap. Hopefull I crit block cap quickly so i can go stam.

I imagine this actually being a much bigger problem in 10s because 25 go stam anyway
Edited by Ðemolition on 5/16/2013 10:43 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
05/16/2013 10:35 AMPosted by Arielle
(trash gets me upwards of 500k at times ^.^),

That falls under "stupid things to generate high vengeance" mentioned earlier.


Eh yeah but its fun and I will miss it.

Really gonna have to make them let me pull a boss with trash mobs still up to do 600k dps to a boss.
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What it does prevent is stupid things like purposely taking more damage to get Vengeance higher. Which is fine, and actually a good thing.

Like monks eating decapitating throw to their face for instant vengeance cap.

But as Arielle said, most of the time, it won't make any difference as that would be 350k in 25m and 200k in 10m. If it were to make a difference, then DKs would have an unfair advantage.
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
Any of the tank-check bosses - Horridon, Ji-kun, kinda Tortos though because its a special attack it doesn't actually count - have the potential to cap a tank's vengeance under this model, and well below what it could be.

Which ends up meaning that those fights are going to get harder for tanks because their survivability will be capped out.

idk... maybe up the cap in for both sizes on Heroic or something.
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90 Human Paladin
13310
Tortos isnt even the hardest hitting heroic and im seeing 170.


Yeah, but you've probably got, what, 650-700k health with raid buffs? A boss has to do something like 20-30% more damage to you than Tortos to cap you on Vengeance. And even then - if you're at cap - it's not really a problem.

The problem only comes into play when you're missing a LOT of attack power. For example, imagine a scenario in which you're taking enough damage to give you 100% of your max health as Vengeance. But because the cap is only 30%, Shield Barrier is effectively about a third as good as it's "supposed" to be. Now Shield Barrier is a LOT worse than Shield Block - and perhaps more importantly, a lot worse than something like Death Strike vs. magic damage, since Death Strike works off damage taken and not Vengeance.

But you have to be missing out on a LOT of additional attack power for that sort of discrepancy to crop up - it's pretty rare, and most of the time it's something like the examples people are giving above, where you're using game mechanics pretty creatively. In situations where you're really exceeding the Vengeance cap, the overriding concern is usually whether or not you're using cooldowns correctly, and that overshadows the other stuff.

If people are just concerned about tank damage done being lower, I think that's a relatively trivial concern. The cap's high enough that tank DPS will still matter (and in the case of 25s, it's high enough that it'll still put you head and shoulders above the DPSers in your raid if you're at cap) which is the important thing. As long as they tune next tier's encounters to fit whatever level of DPS tanks will actually be capable of doing, that won't be a problem either.
Edited by Branar on 5/16/2013 11:02 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
05/16/2013 10:59 AMPosted by Branar
Yeah, but you've probably got, what, 650-700k health with raid buffs? A boss has to do something like 20-30% more damage to you than Tortos to cap you on Vengeance. And even then - if you're at cap - it's not really a problem.


My point is that, its not even the most vengeance you can see in 10s, and if the jump to t16 is as big as it was to t15, we're going to run into cap
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90 Human Paladin
13310
Maybe. Some bosses like Heroic Horridon Rampaging hit hard, no doubt, but do they hit THAT much harder than WotE heroic or Shekzeer heroic adds did?

The jump in effective Vengeance "cap" from t14 to t15 was also huge, courtesy of a +26 item level gap between equivalent loot in tiers (e.g. going from normal -> normal or heroic -> heroic). The jump in gear might be even bigger this time around since they've got thunderforged stuff dropping off every normal boss and much cheaper upgrades via VP to surpass. I think things will be okay.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
That was completely not where I was going.

But Fean cant resist a good tirade I guess
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
05/16/2013 11:16 AMPosted by Branar
Maybe. Some bosses like Heroic Horridon Rampaging hit hard, no doubt, but do they hit THAT much harder than WotE heroic or Shekzeer heroic adds did?


I noticed that until I started tracking my own Vengeance (for Sacred Shield reasons), I had no objective measure of how "hard" I was being hit. Actually, I should rephrase that - I have a much better idea of the dangerous damage I'm taking, it's just that Vengeance is a weird mechanic that calculates absorbed/avoided attacks, factors in mitigation, and as such I can't actually base my damage intake off of it. My Vengeance WA was broken the first time I did Heroic Jin'Rokh and he barely tickled me, then I went and did the guy next week and I was sitting at 100k+ the whole time because he actually does hit hard (it's just, you know, Paladin + the whole raid is sitting there healing and we have Disc Priests/Holy Pallies and stuff).

There is nothing this tier that could hit remotely hard enough to get to the Vengeance cap (unless you are seriously trying so, so hard to get there, and you'd basically deserve a gold medal for doing so) but I absolutely do believe that this can be a necessary change next tier. I mean, 400k Vengeance on Tortos trash is fine because it's trash. 200k for the actual bat tanking on 25H is silly because that's an actual boss...
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90 Tauren Druid
13005
05/16/2013 10:29 AMPosted by Arielle
Would hope they'd work balancing dependence on vengeance for damage into that patch then...

For the overwhelming majority of people it won't change anything. The cap won't be low enough to cap your Vengeance under normal circumstances.

What it does prevent is stupid things like purposely taking more damage to get Vengeance higher. Which is fine, and actually a good thing.


IDK for 700k hp that's only 210k vengeance AP, I've hit that number in more than one normal kill. Hell just last week when killing horridon our other tank died before wargod spawned, so when he came down I was tanking both and peaked at 310k vengeance, without that AP (and zerking/incarnation thank god they were up) FR wouldn't have been topping me off near as well nor tnt reducing melee damage near as much.

edit: this is 10 man of course, I don't see issues with reducing it to just a flat 50%.
Edited by Felshifter on 5/16/2013 11:49 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
There are already fights in 10H, and even normal, where bosses do such a ridiculous about of damage that you'd be well beyond the vengeance cap they've proposed.

Heroic Horridon hits for about 500k with his normal melee attack, about every second.

I don't recall offhand what cooldowns I had up when I noticed that attack hit me for that much, but I can readily assure that was with some kind of cooldown.

I run about 720k on heroic horridon currently. I end up at around 350k vengeance at the end of the fight if I'm alive.

Heroic Ji-kun is another candidate, that while she only hits about half as hard as horridon, has a terrible amount of magical damage that boosts the vengeance on that fight well beyond 200k most of the time.

I don't know why people are underestimating the damage 10man bosses do so much...
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
I don't know why people are underestimating the damage 10man bosses do so much...


Its not so much that as 30% vs 50%

50% is fine.

30% in 10s is stupid and all it will do is feed into "lol10mans"
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
05/16/2013 12:58 PMPosted by Ðemolition
I don't know why people are underestimating the damage 10man bosses do so much...


Its not so much that as 30% vs 50%

50% is fine.

30% in 10s is stupid and all it will do is feed into "lol10mans"


30% in 10N is probably fine, in heroic its a different story :/

I will miss my 1M dps on iron qon trash :(
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