Outhealed by a DK in ToT?

90 Tauren Druid
10415
My guild is working on Horridon right now but we are struggling to make it through the high damage.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/18qor8exc5635rvc/sum/healingDone/

One thing I notice is that our DK tank is doing more healing than our Resto Shaman. I'm not necessarily implying that anyone is doing anything wrong, but I'd like your opinions on what might be going on and what could be done to improve.
Edited by Gotnorice on 5/9/2013 8:53 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
12905
I can't comment on the shaman, but your paladin is making some extremely odd gear choices. They are reforging heavy into haste and just ignoring mastery. He is also dead middle in haste rating of two breakpoints which isn't doing them any favors.

If he went more mastery heavy the poor druid wouldn't have to be carrying him and the shaman.

That said your shaman and paladin look like they are taking turns just sitting on their thumbs doing the absolute bare minimum of work based on active times.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8410
As for the Death Knight, I haven't had much experience tanking with or healing a death knight in normal modes, but from what I understand, that's exactly how they work; insane self-heals. Depending on how long he's on Horridon, I can imagine his self heals getting pretty damn high, not to mention the blood shield absorbs count towards healing done.

Keep in mind, too, that any time you do 3 heal an encounter, there is a tendency where one healer is going to be twiddling his thumbs a bit. This is probably doubly so for Horridon, where damage comes in short bursts.

Still, I do agree with Slothish; your paladin and shaman should be doing more.
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90 Troll Shaman
13300
Looking at those logs my best guess is that the shaman is literally going afk during attempts.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9415
You need to find better co-healers.

Your paladin did 33k on Jin'Rohk? With an uptime of 77%? What is he doing? Also Why would he have Holy Prism on that fight? Light's Hammer is amazing for storms.

Sacred Shield over EF? Can't see his gear as he logged in Prot gear, but if the previous poster is correct about reforging INTO haste, then someone needs to sit him down and teach him how to HPal.

Your longest attempt on Horridon was also pretty bad:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-sqs1cmkofx9qkw4j/sum/healingDone/?s=2745&e=3298
That's my last kill, and I am by no means the most amazing healer in the world. Have your HPal look at that and see if it helps him a bit.

Edit: 33k on Jin'Rohk for an HPal is very bad. I sit at 60-75K normally. I can push up to 85-95K if I really push it hard and let my RDruid relax and Wrath spam a bit.
Edited by Freeweezy on 5/9/2013 9:56 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
10415
Edit: 33k on Jin'Rohk for an HPal is very bad. I sit at 60-75K normally. I can push up to 85-95K if I really push it hard and let my RDruid relax and Wrath spam a bit.

Your guild also killed Jin'Rohk in about half the time it took for us to get it down lol. If we got bosses down that fast I could probably drop half my spirit for throughput stats and/or heal much more aggressively myself.
Edited by Gotnorice on 7/23/2013 3:01 PM PDT
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05/09/2013 09:30 AMPosted by Fistlobster
Keep in mind, too, that any time you do 3 heal an encounter, there is a tendency where one healer is going to be twiddling his thumbs a bit.

This! ^

When looking at all your Horridon wipes, the top 2 healers did a combined HPS of 86k. That's more than I do with my healing partner on that fight, and we're two-healing... If you really need that much healing, I think you might be better off with some more dps. Maybe the adds aren't dying fast enough? Not enough interrupts going out? Either way, the dps numbers look a little low to me.

If you're giving it try with 2 healers, assign one healer to each tank and have DPS install decursive & have them help out with the dispels. You might wipe a couple of times due to high damage taken which you can't cover with 2 healers, but it will teach your dps to be more aware (good prep for council too).
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90 Troll Shaman
13300
Your shaman is glyphed for riptide yet used riptide (on average) every 19 seconds on one of your longer attempts (riptide unglyphed has a 6 second cd).

Very poor use of cds. Didn't use healing tide at all in both of the 3-4 minute attempts, and only used ascendance in 1 of those longer attempts (but got very poor use out of it).
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I hate to point fingers, but it does seem like something is going on.

Check our our Sha kill. We 2-healed that fight, me and the Shaman (pally was tanking), but the Shaman was #5 on healing, how is that possible?

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/smj2xj4ofkop6h6b/sum/healingDone/?s=4585&e=5356

As a consolation, I did so much healing from picking up the slack that I got a ranked score on that fight lol


Incorrect.

Here's the thing - Sha of Fear is similar to Garajal in that the only "accurate" log you'll have for the entire fight is the one you log. Your Shaman was likely doing the same or more healing than you were doing. But because he was out of range of you for the majority of the fight, you weren't logging all of the healing he was doing when you were on the platform and he was where the Sha is, or when he was on the platform or you were where the Sha is.
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90 Pandaren Monk
14715
he was dpsing .... not healing...
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90 Pandaren Monk
8410
he was dpsing .... not healing...


Woah, he is. What sorcery is this?
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Yes your shaman and pally healers are making odd choices and not healing optimal. Devotion aura, Divine Favor and Ascendance have only been used once and I don't see a single Mana tide (?). BUT your DPS is also on the low end and not doing much extra to help prevent damage.

My guild was in that same position a couple of weeks ago and while it may seem obvious that the healers are the culprits to your wiping, it's a team effort and -honestly- everyone can do better.

I'd like your opinions on what might be going on and what could be done to improve.

If I were in your position, I'd tell the entire raidteam to step it up, to re-research their spec (talents, cooldowns) and the fight (dispels, interrupts, positioning) and just go in there, get as much practise as possible and try to not over-analyze between wipes.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
10090
Just looking at your two longest attempts, I can't imagine why I wouldn't use greater healing wave even once during the fight in a situation where a wipe seemed imminent, unless I was completely oom. Also, earth shield being such a high percentage of his heals kind of suggests to me that he's not doing as much as he should be in terms of active healing. His stats look ok, at least for his gear level, so maybe he needs to go over some logs and compare what spells he is using. Here are the ranked resto shamans on this fight: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Throne_of_Thunder/Horridon/10N/Restoration_Shaman/.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
he was dpsing .... not healing...


One was. The other wasn't. There were two in the original log.
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90 Tauren Druid
10415
Incorrect.

Here's the thing - Sha of Fear is similar to Garajal in that the only "accurate" log you'll have for the entire fight is the one you log. Your Shaman was likely doing the same or more healing than you were doing. But because he was out of range of you for the majority of the fight, you weren't logging all of the healing he was doing when you were on the platform and he was where the Sha is, or when he was on the platform or you were where the Sha is.


ah, thank you for the correction. I forgot about that.
Edited by Gotnorice on 5/9/2013 11:50 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
11670
Your guild also killed Jin'Rohk in about half the time it took for us to get it down lol. If we got bosses down that fast I could probably drop half my spirit for throughput stats and/or heal much more aggressively myself.


No. 33k is bad. On our first kill the first week of ToT I did at least 80k on my paladin. Think it might have been higher due to extra damage from not knowing the fight that well yet. Half the time (now) I forget to swap to Light's Hammer and still do that amount.

At least get him to TRY regemming (spirit/mastery for blue, purified for red, spirit mastery for yellow imo) and reforging into mastery, not away from it. ie: undo the reforges away from mastery, reforge things like the belt to mastery. It's simply a better stat right now, there's not even really an argument for haste. Haste was cata.
Edited by Kharra on 5/9/2013 12:13 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
10730
Okay, it looks like you guys are wiping on the first and second doors.
Those should be the two lowest damage doors if done correctly. But to be honest, the only times I ever really have to heal much on that fight are the third door, the fourth if people don't pay attention, and when War God drops down until he dies. The rest of the fight I'm spot healing and throwing lightning bolts, dispels, and interrupts everywhere. I get outhealed by DKs consistently on this fight because of the high tank damage and how DK healing scales with the damage coming in.

But going over the logs, this is what I've noticed causing your wipes.

1) Interrupts. Out of the 4 attempts it looked like you got to the second door, you have a total of 7 interrupts. You have people who died taking damage from Venom Bolt volley, you also have at least 7 people who have interrupts. Both Shamans, Mage, Warrior, Both DKs, and the Rogue. Your mage has the longest CD on an interrupt and has the most interrupts overall. From the looks of it, I'd say he's interrupting the stun on the first door. For the second door, assign two DPS to the priests, one to each of the second wave. Those priests are their responsibility for interrupts. Assign two more to interrupt any Venomous Effusions that spawn. You can assign your Resto Shaman to this duty as well, I know because I do it for my group I get put on effusion duty, 90% of the time we don't have a single volley go off. If you do this, that second door will be really easy.

2) Bad Puddles. You have multiple people, including the mage I just spoke highly of for interrupting, who die to sand traps. Everyone in your group with the exception of Breccia had Sand Trap in their top 5 damage taken sources for the whole night(not counting Jin'Rokh). Breccia had it 6th. This is NOT a mechanic you should have to heal through. There is a similar ability on all 4 doors. Just move out of it. This one is also far easier than the next one. The Living Poison moves on the second door. If you get this done, there will be far less healing to do. But also, both tanks took lots of Sand Trap damage. This means you had the boss too close to the group. The tank who has Horridon shouldn't have anything land on him/her, about they only things they need to be worrying about are Double Swipes, Triple Punctures, and the Horridon's Melee.

Continued next post. Character Limit.
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90 Draenei Shaman
10730
Now looking at the Shaman's Armory:
I'm seeing his chest isn't gemmed or enchanted, he got it awhile ago. This will help. His spirit is a bit low for my taste, I usually try to get about 8k, but I've heard good arguments for going as high as 20k. I also go for the minimum amount of spirit that will get me through a fight. He's also reforging out of crit. The more crit you have the less spirit you need, the less crit you have the more spirit you need. To sustain his level of spirit, he'll need 25-30% crit unbuffed. He's sitting at 10.5%.
He seems to be gearing for big, fast healing in high damage phases. This means he's going to pretty much do nothing unless someone is really really low on health, below 40% usually.

He's not using any of his main mana regen glyphs. Telluric Currents, Totemic Recall, and Water Shield are these. Each one is useful in specific circumstances. On Horridon, I'd suggest Telluric Currents. It's a fairly low damage fight with plenty of time to weave in Lightning Bolts to help with damage and mana. Totemic Recall is the trickiest to use

Glyph of Riptide. He's not using Riptide enough to justify it. I'd suggest getting rid of it. I used it myself for awhile, but when I switched off, I didn't even realize I had because I wasn't using Riptide enough to justify the use. It also increased my healing done a little.

Haste. He's at 3285. Haste caps for resto are 871, 5676, and 7613.
At 12.5%(871) haste, you gain an additional tick of Earthliving Weapon. In the process of reaching this cap, you also get an additional tick of Riptide (at 8.3% haste) and an additional tick of Healing Rain (at 10% haste).
At 25%(5676) haste, you gain a second additional tick of Riptide.
At 30%(7613) haste, you gain a second additional tick of Healing Rain.
I don't know much about Totem haste caps, just that they're ridiculously buggy and latency dependent, so I don't go for them and I just try to get as much Haste as possible off since it's now impossible for me to get down to 871 but not possible to get to 5676.

Gemming. His gemming is really inconsistent. He has a red socket with a spirit/int gem, then he has two more with straight int. In some blue sockets he has pure spirit and others he went with the spirit/int. Intellect is his most powerful stat, and he should seek to get as much as he can. I would suggest for red and prismatic sockets going straight int, for blue, go int/spirit, and for orange int/crit since his mastery is really high.

Nature's Guardian. I'm not a fan of this talent personally, I prefer Stone Bulwark Totem with sometimes swapping to Astral Shift if the fight requires it.
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90 Night Elf Priest
5045
Is...your name a sg1 reference?

Please say yes.
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90 Draenei Shaman
10730
Of course it is!
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