Outhealed by a DK in ToT?

90 Night Elf Priest
14340
Even so, Horridon encounter happens in a huge room and depending on your group and how you're doing it, a tank healer may be very far away for a majority of the encounter from the rest of the group.
I would make sure you get meter reports from multiple sources as I've seen very wide variations when the fight is spread out.
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Druid
11195
Even so, Horridon encounter happens in a huge room and depending on your group and how you're doing it, a tank healer may be very far away for a majority of the encounter from the rest of the group.
I would make sure you get meter reports from multiple sources as I've seen very wide variations when the fight is spread out.


Fair enough.

This is the log from those same Horridon attempts as recorded and uploaded by our Tank:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a0vkpz9ijpydway1/sum/healingDone/?enc=wipes&boss=68476

My log from earlier again:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/18qor8exc5635rvc/sum/healingDone/?enc=wipes&boss=68476

Pretty consistent.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
5045
Of course it is!


"It's "O'Neill," with two L's. There's another Colonel O'Neil with only one L, and he has no sense of humor at all."

Sorry, I'll go away now.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
14340
There is something weird going on with that report. Notice on the damage done meter everyone always appears, even healers, however low their damage is (in 0.X% or whatever) but he isn't there.
His damage and healing taken is also super low which makes no sense as healers get aggro on adds super fast unless your group is pro at locking them all down. So that in my mind means he probably died right away.
Judging by his deaths, he mostly died at door one and once on door two from a rend. On door one he died mostly cause the dot didn't get dispelled (and for this you yell at your pally or shadow priest for not mass dispelling), and a few times from a trap or standing in horridon's charge.
In fact looking at your raid overall, they're mostly dying cause of the blazing sunlight (no dispel magic) on door 1.

Looking at your log in detail is the reason you're dying. Not a single healer cast off a single dispel, magic or poison the whole fight (door 1 and door 2). No dispel=death on this fight. Whatever they're taking talent or glyph wise I don't care, without the cleanse/dispel on this fight you're never going to get anywhere. Yell at your healers to set up their raidframes to color their bars when they can dispel something and make sure they have every ability to dispel whatever they can glyph/talent wise, and that they use it on CD. It'll suck up their mana but it's the only way you're going to live.

Not sure if this still works but http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info21512-DispelCDTracker.html#info can let you track it during the fight what's going on, and at the end always have someone print out the report of total dispels for the fight from a meter. DPS should be contributing too and dispelling themselves if they have the ability to.
Edited by Sedivy on 5/9/2013 12:59 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
10730
There is something weird going on with that report. Notice on the damage done meter everyone always appears, even healers, however low their damage is (in 0.X% or whatever) but he isn't there.
His damage and healing taken is also super low which makes no sense as healers get aggro on adds super fast unless your group is pro at locking them all down. So that in my mind means he probably died right away.
Judging by his deaths, he mostly died at door one and once on door two from a rend. On door one he died mostly cause the dot didn't get dispelled (and for this you yell at your pally or shadow priest for not mass dispelling), and a few times from a trap or standing in horridon's charge.
In fact looking at your raid overall, they're mostly dying cause of the blazing sunlight (no dispel magic) on door 1.

Looking at your log in detail is the reason you're dying. Not a single healer cast off a single dispel, magic or poison the whole fight (door 1 and door 2). No dispel=death on this fight. Whatever they're taking talent or glyph wise I don't care, without the cleanse/dispel on this fight you're never going to get anywhere. Yell at your healers to set up their raidframes to color their bars when they can dispel something and make sure they have every ability to dispel whatever they can glyph/talent wise, and that they use it on CD. It'll suck up their mana but it's the only way you're going to live.

Not sure if this still works but http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info21512-DispelCDTracker.html#info can let you track it during the fight what's going on, and at the end always have someone print out the report of total dispels for the fight. DPS should be contributing too and dispelling themselves if they have the ability to.


I saw quite a few dispels. 0.o It's shown on the dashboard near the bottom left.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
A lot of your deaths are due to things like standing in double swipe and not interrupting the venemous effusions. But um...both your Paladin and your Shaman are slacking.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
14340
34 dispels for Tkenga apparently and yet the only thing Tkenga can dispel is curse which doesn't appear till door 4. So what is he dispelling. I call that summary bull!@#$. I went through their spells and buffs cast from log for each healer. I see no Cleanses or Nature's Cures. No Mass Dispel by a shadow priest. Almost every raid player died from blazing sunlight (death log) which speaks in and of itself so whatever dispelling you think was going on was not enough.
The only way to deal with this is set up your own raidframes to color entire bar by appropriate debuff color. That way you'll know when they're going out and if they're getting removed or not during the fight.
Edited by Sedivy on 5/9/2013 1:10 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
34 dispels for Tkenga apparently and yet the only thing Tkenga can dispel is curse which doesn't appear till door 4. So what is he dispelling. I call that summary bull!@#$. I went through their spells and buffs cast from log for each healer. Almost every raid player died from blazing sunlight (death log) which speaks in and of itself so whatever dispelling you think was going on was not enough.
The only way to deal with this is set up your own raidframes to color entire bar by appropriate debuff color. That way you'll know when they're going out and if they're getting removed or not during the fight.


Tkenga is Resto. He's the healer. He can dispel Magic and Curses. And he wasn't dying to Blazing Sunlight except for once (and even then, it was more "hey dude got no heals and had someone hitting him with Blazing Sunlight going out"). He was getting hit in the face by Horridon. :( And all the adds he was somehow facetanking instead of them being on the tanks.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
14340
Looking at this:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a0vkpz9ijpydway1/deaths/?enc=wipes&boss=68476
shows an awful lot of your raid dying to blazing sunlight or venom and a some from rend which when stacks with venom is deadly.
If he was facetanking adds, then he was pulling aggro as a healer and tanks aren't doing their job of picking up the adds.
As for standing in charge, that's your standard lack of spatial/mechanic awareness, and the way to deal with that is as a leader watch for charge incoming, warn the raid someone's gotta run out of the raid then call out the raid when warning goes out. I'm not saying it'll help, some people are just beyond help but it's what you should do on your end.
I'm not saying your shammy is stellar, don't get me wrong. Especially if he's dying early. But I think you got a lot bigger problems than just him. 10 man horridon can be two healed and your other two healers are doing way more than enough healing, in fact more healing than there should be damage. So...need to be looking at other things.

Your dps is also problematic. So far I only see your mage and your shadow priest actually doing more damage to adds than to boss. Your dps needs to get off the boss except for those few seconds before the first adds come, and focus more on adds. Boss dps doesn't really happen significantly barring a few dots here and there between doors until all doors are done. If adds aren't dying, debuffs are constantly going out. No amount of healing/dispelling is going to save you then because healers will oom too soon as dispels are expensive and you will die.
I mean look at your rogue for crying out loud. 45% damage to horridon? He should be all over those adds, stunning, them and blinding them up the wazoo, kicking/interrupting and stabbing them in the back. Instead he's chillin on the boss.
Edited by Sedivy on 5/9/2013 4:44 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
9730
Well the thing that got me about the dispells is that it's only three people are dispelling.. DPS don't have to worry about mana, so if they can dispel themselves at the very least, and try to dispel others.. then they should. The priest and one of your shammies can help out on the doors where they can dispel something.

As far as your own log Got, I'm noticing that you're not keeping harmony up nor are you keeping LB up. This in turn told me that you're probably running low on mana or really high on spirit. Checked out your Armory and you're running high on Spirit, nearly 13k without having full 522 gear or even spirit trinkets is a lot for a druid.

You seem to be going towards mastery over haste which is the best, at least in my opinion. But all those pure spirit gems are cutting off the mastery you could have.

However, atm none of that matters because you're not keeping harmony up. So to tie it all up, you really need to work on keeping harmony up 100% of the time... LB should be up 95%+ Keeping harmony up will mean that your HoTs and direct heals will do better so you wont have to heal as much to keep someone alive. LB needs to be on most of the time for obvious reasons.. if you're re-casting it, you're using more mana.. Both Harmony and LB will help you use less mana.. Which means you can get rid of those spirit gems for some int/mastery gems instead.

edit: WeakAura helps a lot with both harmony and LB, if you need some websites with strings to import I can send those your way.
Edited by Ohdin on 5/9/2013 1:28 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
7490
You need to find better co-healers.

Your paladin did 33k on Jin'Rohk? With an uptime of 77%? What is he doing? Also Why would he have Holy Prism on that fight? Light's Hammer is amazing for storms.

Sacred Shield over EF? Can't see his gear as he logged in Prot gear, but if the previous poster is correct about reforging INTO haste, then someone needs to sit him down and teach him how to HPal.

Your longest attempt on Horridon was also pretty bad:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-sqs1cmkofx9qkw4j/sum/healingDone/?s=2745&e=3298
That's my last kill, and I am by no means the most amazing healer in the world. Have your HPal look at that and see if it helps him a bit.

Edit: 33k on Jin'Rohk for an HPal is very bad. I sit at 60-75K normally. I can push up to 85-95K if I really push it hard and let my RDruid relax and Wrath spam a bit.


not gonna say im the best hpally but i got to agree with you,my holy pally doesnt even break 490 yet and it can at the very least do 50-55k hps for jink when im trying to not over heal ppl and play with my mana saving skills.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
7660
Also Why would he have Holy Prism on that fight? Light's Hammer is amazing for storms.


Holy Prism is great for Horridon, especially in a 10m raid. Horridon's large hit box allows for a greater reach for healing. Light's Hammer is pretty weak in comparison when you take mobility in to account. There a few fights where i'm finding light's hammer a better option than holy prism; Jin'Rok, Megara, maybe Council it just depends on the comp and strategy in killing the boss.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
Looking at those logs my best guess is that the shaman is literally going afk during attempts.


Maybe. But these logs look fairly useless to me actually, given the wipes are so damn quick. They are wiping on the first and second door, and I don't know whether they had healing assignments for who was healing the horridon tank during those doors. Even if the shaman needed to pick things up, the damage done looks pretty terrible to me. And frankly, add killing is by far the most important part of Horridon.

Attempt 1: 2:01
Attempt 2: 1:56
Attempt 3: 3:53
Attempt 4: 2:45
Attempt 5: 1:53
Attempt 6: 3:36

OP, if you'd like to direct your shaman to a source of information about shaman, please do not look in these forums - a lot of the advice can be terrible and wrong. This guide is *very* good: http://lifeingroup5.com/?page_id=3050

Here is the discussion of stats, in general: http://lifeingroup5.com/?page_id=3057

Here is the discussion of mastery vs. crit: http://lifeingroup5.com/?p=2965
Edited by Taymage on 5/9/2013 7:59 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9485
05/09/2013 05:33 PMPosted by Basilius
Also Why would he have Holy Prism on that fight? Light's Hammer is amazing for storms.


Holy Prism is great for Horridon, especially in a 10m raid. Horridon's large hit box allows for a greater reach for healing. Light's Hammer is pretty weak in comparison when you take mobility in to account. There a few fights where i'm finding light's hammer a better option than holy prism; Jin'Rok, Megara, maybe Council it just depends on the comp and strategy in killing the boss.


I know. I was talking about Jin'Rohk for Hammer
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Druid
11195
As far as your own log Got, I'm noticing that you're not keeping harmony up nor are you keeping LB up. This in turn told me that you're probably running low on mana or really high on spirit. Checked out your Armory and you're running high on Spirit, nearly 13k without having full 522 gear or even spirit trinkets is a lot for a druid.

You seem to be going towards mastery over haste which is the best, at least in my opinion. But all those pure spirit gems are cutting off the mastery you could have.

However, atm none of that matters because you're not keeping harmony up. So to tie it all up, you really need to work on keeping harmony up 100% of the time... LB should be up 95%+ Keeping harmony up will mean that your HoTs and direct heals will do better so you wont have to heal as much to keep someone alive. LB needs to be on most of the time for obvious reasons.. if you're re-casting it, you're using more mana.. Both Harmony and LB will help you use less mana.. Which means you can get rid of those spirit gems for some int/mastery gems instead.

edit: WeakAura helps a lot with both harmony and LB, if you need some websites with strings to import I can send those your way.


I appreciate the advice. I already do have very good uptime on lifebloom and harmony. One thing about these attempts is that we had many cases where multiple people all got taken out by the double swipe, etc (me not being one of them), at which point the raid-leader would call wipe. At that point I might be standing there for as long as 30+ seconds just waiting to die, and I would imagine that is having a negative effect on my reported uptime for harmony and lifebloom. The main reason I go for high spirit is because we tend to have low DPS, our fights drag on and it's common for us to come within seconds of enrage. I also like to be aggressive with Rejuvenation.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
15560
I'd have to agree with some of the posts in the thread, and ask if the shaman is AFK. If he feels like there's not a ton of damage for him to heal, maybe he should help lightning bolt for the first few doors as your DPS looks like it could be a bit higher.

In regards to your recent post:
I went heavy spirit all the way until Lei Shen, even with pretty decent gear from a good set of drops / valor. Our other 2 healers are a Disc Priest and Holy Paladin who seemed like they could heal for days, but keeping up always seemed to drain my mana. 13k spirit is a lot, but I don't think it's a bad thing personally.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
12580
To OP,

To give you an idea where both Holy Paladins and Resto Shamans should be when 2 healing I'm going to link a couple of my own logs.

Your resto shaman is just bad. Replace him. Someone said he was 'afk' but no, he's just bad. With a 93% up-time, he should easily be able to do over 60k hps on Jin'rokh.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7tl72r72e5shnasb/sum/healingDone/?s=307&e=566
This is for Jin'rokh with priest/shaman 2healing.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7tl72r72e5shnasb/sum/healingDone/?s=1951&e=2496
This is the same log for Horridon with priest/shaman 2 healing.

The gear level is around the same, so it's not a gear issue. (I.e. our healers and your healers are ~ the same)

Here is my log for Jin'rokh and Horridon kills with me and a druid. (couple weeks back). This log has a Horridon kill as well, but we 3-healed it since ppl needed gear (we usually 2 heal it)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/nd8mkupz8divaqvm/sum/healingDone/?s=106&e=339

And here is this week's log where I two-healed with our shaman.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6wll31n2jpxlvtq4/sum/healingDone/?s=1303&e=1838

So with that to compare it to, you should easily see where your problems lay with your healers. Our heals for Horridon are always low because our dps are smart and don't usually take unnecessary damage on it.
Edited by Kyáza on 5/12/2013 8:05 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Monk
8920
Most of DK's self-healing are actually absorbs, which compensates for the lack of a shield.

If DPS and tanks do it right, Horridon becomes an easy-healing fight. Some can even 1-heal it.

30k on Jin'Rokh is reeeally low. 50k minimum expected.
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Druid
9545

Your resto shaman is just bad. Replace him. Someone said he was 'afk' but no, he's just bad. With a 93% up-time, he should easily be able to do over 60k hps on Jin'rokh.


NO. Not with a Holy Pally in the group.

Seriously, one week I dropped 29k hps on jin rokh. Because the Holy pally likes to epeen all over the meters.

He did 140k, in equal gear to me. No, I'm not making that garbage up. IF a Holy Pally *WANTS* to obliterate you on this fight, he can and will. Every time. Will even crush a disc priest here with an easy 50% IH abuse.
Edited by Tonydanza on 5/13/2013 12:08 PM PDT
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]