Protection Warrior Secondary Stat Scaling

90 Human Warrior
20830
Hello community, I am here to mildly rant and offer some suggestions and display some complications I have come into play with Warriors and the tanking model for MoP.

Secondary stats such as crit and haste (I leave out hit, expertise and mastery due to them being pretty much standard for all 5 tanking classes) are completely wasted mitigation-wise on Warriors and Warriors alone.

Every other tank gains benefit through more survivability from these stats while warriors remain left in the background.

If this was intentional or overlooked is still in question to me however seeing as we are balls deep into MoP I can only imagine that the model for warriors was intended.

Therein lies the problem. To me, this plateaus warriors in comparison to other tanks. The feeling of linear scaling went out the window when other tank roles took off running with the slew of itemization Throne of Thunder presented.

This wasn't as much of a deal to me in T14 (albeit I knew it was coming) due to the fact that itemization didn't allow hit and expertise caps to come so naturally and thus make going into secondary stats the thing to do.

Here are some examples (Once again I leave out mastery, hit and expertise due to their benefit being basically mutual across all 5 classes):

Monk: Haste benefits Energy Regeneration (and directly thus benefiting Chi generation) and also benefits Elusive Brew stacks due to more AA crits. Crit directly benefits Elusive Brew stacks.

DK: Haste benefits Rune Regeneration which is a boost to survivability due to more DS/Runic Power/etc. Crit has no benefit

Paladin: Haste benefits GCD reduction which is a boost to Holy Power generation which increases survivability. Crit has no benefit

Druid: Haste benefits AA rage generation which leads to more survivability due to more Savage Defense/Tooth and Claw/Frenzied Regen spammability. Crit benefits Rage generation.

Warrior: Due to have no rage from AA, haste has no benefit nor does crit.

"But Mass, you have Shield Block AND Barrier, qq moar nub l0lz"


Sure, I do, however my rage is not something I can generate faster than what is dictated by my GCD. Warriors have no way of increasing their resource generation, something every other tank class possesses.

I am by no means saying that each of the above classes goes out of their way to stack haste/crit to become super OP. I am saying that the stats have benefit which allows them to scale more-so as gear contains more and more stats.
The closest example to a warrior is a DK in terms of how little they gain from secondary stats, but they still gain benefits for when Heroism is popped or are in a fight where haste is increased (Primordius for example).

"What do you think will fix the problem Mass?"

I believe our rage model needs to be changed, or that our mitigation model needs to be shifted.

Rage Model idea:

Druids.

It is plain and simple to me, and it boggles me why the community hasn't commented much on it before.
The Druid rage generation system allows both haste and crit to be useful whilst not allowing them to be rage capped in normal raid situations.
If Warriors got rage from AA we can dull down the rage we get from abilities (Knocking Shield Slam down from giving 20 rage down to 10, Revenge from 15 giving 5) and allow a steady stream of rage to be accrued through AA.
Much like druids the more haste you have the more rage you get and getting extra rage on crits would allow crit to not be a wasted stat as well.

Mitigation Model idea:


I believe our Shield Barrier should be changed to have some sort of damage requirement to provide mitigation. With crit and haste being out of the equation Warrior damage has fallen behind all other tanks.
Giving Shield Barrier a damage requirement instead of a boring "scales with AP" modifier it will allow Warriors to extend their itemization into secondary stats along with their tanking counterparts.

Here is my idea:

Shield Barrier (Old): Raise your shield, absorbing ((max((Attack power * $STR) * 180 / 100, $STA * 250 / 100) * 1) / 3) damage for the next 6 sec.

Consumes up to 60 Rage to increase the amount absorbed. Absorption amount increases with attack power.

Shield Barrier (New): Raise your shield, absorbing 20%-60% of the warrior's damage dealt in the past 3 seconds.

Consumes up to 60 Rage to increase the amount absorbed (Obviously 1 rage per % gained).

With this model warriors can do an "All Crit" build and rely on them doing damage to absorb damage. (Kind of how the monk statue works, how Monks go all crit to have EB stacks and Druids go all crit to have Rage)

These are just ideas and I am looking for people who share my idea of the lack of scaling that warriors are presented with due to other tanks being able to use stats that we cannot.

Looking forward to seeing if people share my views, thanks.
Mass
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
Mastery scales exponentially with Shield Block. So no, Warrior scaling is more than fine.

And Warrior damage isn't even significantly behind other tanks (see: H Tortos ranks). Most Prot Wars just play like crap.
Edited by Kangarooster on 5/10/2013 7:25 PM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
20830
Mastery isn't a stat I am worried about, to be clear I am not arguing that warriors are completely off the chart, I am arguing the fact that every tank gains benefit from mastery in addition to gaining benefit from Haste and/or Crit.

I am not arguing that warrior damage is low either, and picking H: Tortos as an example is probably the worst fight to even consider being taken seriously.
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90 Worgen Druid
10660
Hmm.. Make the damage done absorb mechanic scale with mastery, since it scales with vengeance it'll have to be a moderate percentage around 30%(??). Maybe make it a two button ability?

Button 1 (off the GCD): XX% of your damage for the next 6 seconds gets added on to your Shield Barrier. Extra absorption buff lasts 15 seconds. Has 10 sec CD. Max is 50% of warrior's health. (Seeing as you've gotten 400k+ shield barriers before 50% isnt too steep)

Button 2 = Shield Barrier

More haste = more auto attack added in, more crit = more of an RNG boost.

Shield barrier will have an initial value present to it that scales with some stat (either AP or health) and the first ability will add on to that value until you use it, consuming the buff and granting the shield.
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90 Human Mage
9515
You make a big deal about haste for druids. Hastelol
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
Mastery isn't a stat I am worried about, to be clear I am not arguing that warriors are completely off the chart, I am arguing the fact that every tank gains benefit from mastery in addition to gaining benefit from Haste and/or Crit.

I am not arguing that warrior damage is low either, and picking H: Tortos as an example is probably the worst fight to even consider being taken seriously.
They're not even remotely off the chart. Warrior mitigation is the best this tier.

And how is H Tortos a bad example? Warrior damage is amazing in AoE, that's not a bad or even infrequent niche.
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90 Human Warrior
20830
You make a big deal about haste for druids. Hastelol


I merely said they get rage from AA so haste benefits rage gen, and extra rage on crits. Not making a big deal just touching on how their rage has 2 extra sources of income compared to warriors.

If that is making it a big enough deal for you to post such a stupid comment then sure, it's a big deal.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14480
05/10/2013 07:29 PMPosted by Mass
Mastery isn't a stat I am worried about, to be clear I am not arguing that warriors are completely off the chart, I am arguing the fact that every tank gains benefit from mastery in addition to gaining benefit from Haste and/or Crit.


On the other hand, warriors gain far more benefit from avoidance than any other tank, thanks to Revenge. It's a significant increase to damage and rage gen, and the closest equivalent is Grand Crusader for paladins. That was directly modeled after Revenge, because Blizzard wasn't entirely happy with how much better for them haste was than traditional tanking stats.

Sure, I do, however my rage is not something I can generate faster than what is dictated by my GCD. Warriors have no way of increasing their resource generation, something every other tank class possesses.


You do, but it works differently for you than for other classes. You can increase your rage gen through avoidance and mastery (Revenge and crit block enrage), which is unique to warriors. Nobody else really has that bonus benefit from what are already defensive stats.

These are just ideas and I am looking for people who share my idea of the lack of scaling that warriors are presented with due to other tanks being able to use stats that we cannot.


I'm all for warriors moving closer to the druid stat model, but not because of any imbalance. Tanks are actually quite well balanced at the moment, and mid-expac would be a really bad time to spring a change this big.

But it would be more fun.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8880
05/10/2013 07:17 PMPosted by Mass
DK: Haste benefits Rune Regeneration which is a boost to survivability due to more DS/Runic Power/etc.


It's also hugely minor, because natural regen isn't the main way to gain resources like it is for Paladins.
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90 Human Warrior
20830
05/10/2013 07:50 PMPosted by Policies
DK: Haste benefits Rune Regeneration which is a boost to survivability due to more DS/Runic Power/etc.


It's also hugely minor, because natural regen isn't the main way to gain resources like it is for Paladins.


It's minor but it isn't 0. I also stated how Dk's were the closest to warriors due to how minor it is (usually only prevalent during hero and fights like Primordius)
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90 Troll Hunter
15125
Mastery isn't a stat I am worried about, to be clear I am not arguing that warriors are completely off the chart, I am arguing the fact that every tank gains benefit from mastery in addition to gaining benefit from Haste and/or Crit.

I am not arguing that warrior damage is low either, and picking H: Tortos as an example is probably the worst fight to even consider being taken seriously.
They're not even remotely off the chart. Warrior mitigation is the best this tier.

And how is H Tortos a bad example? Warrior damage is amazing in AoE, that's not a bad or even infrequent niche.


http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Tortos/25H/all/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000011111000000

Warrior is the lowest DPS of tanks on H Tortos. Brewmaster obviously shows up incredibly low due to kiting strats, and would otherwise also destroy warriors.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
The model being less than ideal doesn't mean warriors are underpowered.

They make up for their lack of benefits from those stats with their scaling elsewhere.

What you SHOULD be arguing is that you feel pressured to gear a certain way or feel unimpressed with a secondary stat being on what would otherwise be a great upgrade.
Edited by Rijdot on 5/10/2013 8:15 PM PDT
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90 Human Mage
9515
05/10/2013 07:49 PMPosted by Mass
You make a big deal about haste for druids. Hastelol


I merely said they get rage from AA so haste benefits rage gen, and extra rage on crits. Not making a big deal just touching on how their rage has 2 extra sources of income compared to warriors.

If that is making it a big enough deal for you to post such a stupid comment then sure, it's a big deal.
You mentioned it multiple times. Crit is a hell of a lot better than haste.
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90 Human Warrior
12850
On the other hand, warriors gain far more benefit from avoidance than any other tank, thanks to Revenge. It's a significant increase to damage and rage gen, and the closest equivalent is Grand Crusader for paladins. That was directly modeled after Revenge, because Blizzard wasn't entirely happy with how much better for them haste was than traditional tanking stats.


"More" in the sense that we gain something from it as opposed to just dodge/parry; not really an appreciable amount when it's still random chances upon random chances >_>;

Even after the change Haste is still a great stat for Paladins; the change didn't make Paladins suddenly drop their haste gear in favor of avoidance gear, it just made that avoidance stuff they were wearing in some slots less crap...and from how a lot of Paladins I see and know gear, it really didn't do much in the long-run. But then again, how much could we really expect mid-expac? :P

You do, but it works differently for you than for other classes. You can increase your rage gen through avoidance and mastery (Revenge and crit block enrage), which is unique to warriors. Nobody else really has that bonus benefit from what are already defensive stats.


During a Shield Block you'll gain 20 extra rage at the absolute most, since Enrage from Crit Blocks is on a 3 second ICD; not a small number, but definitely not the big deal you're making of it. That being said though, Revenge is a bit of an oddity, but scales ludicrously well when we're tanking a large amount of mobs, hence the numbers we pull on H Tortos.

Even if we're still the lowest, we were the lowest AoE DPS tank spec anyway, weren't we? We're being beaten by a little over what, 40k? That's not too bad I suppose :P

I'm all for warriors moving closer to the druid stat model, but not because of any imbalance. Tanks are actually quite well balanced at the moment, and mid-expac would be a really bad time to spring a change this big.

But it would be more fun.


I'm more for it because they could eliminate "tank plate" as a thing entirely and stop clogging up loot tables with it; as it stands unless a tank piece (read: piece with avoidance on it) has mastery I don't want it. Other plate tanks tend to function on a similar level; solid avoidance plate is in general considered a big no-no for us. I'd be fine with it being on tier pieces once in awhile (ala the Druid shoulders in T14 with Dodge on them) just for the sake of variety and "interesting" gearing, but only if I had solid alternatives available as drops or rep rewards or crafted pieces or what-have-you.

I'd be okay with this though; I wouldn't mind sharing loot with our single, solitary plate DPS. Would be nice that drops actually would get used as opposed to just outright getting sharded or going to offsets nobody uses...

The main complaint, which I agree with as far as Warriors and secondary stats goes is that Warriors being the most passively strong tanks (as in, tanks who have the best worst-case scenario), have the most passive interactions with their stats as well. Haste for a Paladin influences playstyle changes through influencing the global cooldown, as an example. Most warriors have is the more frequent proccing of Revenge through dodge and parry (Wait, that's still random because it's depending on avoidance, nevermind), besides that, we're fairly predictable. And this is all for the class that many people felt was the most "visceral" and "entertaining" class to play (I'm using quotes for clear bias emphasis, not because I necessarily feel this way :P).

Not that this is bad mind you, but it does lead to the belief that the class is "uninteresting" from a stats perspective. Hopefully we see some changes in 6.0; I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Crit or Haste gear be useful for me someday. :D
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90 Troll Hunter
15125
05/10/2013 08:15 PMPosted by Burnthesky


I merely said they get rage from AA so haste benefits rage gen, and extra rage on crits. Not making a big deal just touching on how their rage has 2 extra sources of income compared to warriors.

If that is making it a big enough deal for you to post such a stupid comment then sure, it's a big deal.
You mentioned it multiple times. Crit is a hell of a lot better than haste.


And the benefit from haste is still nonzero. What is your point?
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15740
And the benefit from haste is still nonzero. What is your point?


Barely.
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90 Human Warrior
20830


The main complaint, which I agree with as far as Warriors and secondary stats goes is that Warriors being the most passively strong tanks (as in, tanks who have the best worst-case scenario), have the most passive interactions with their stats as well. Haste for a Paladin influences playstyle changes through influencing the global cooldown, as an example. Most warriors have is the more frequent proccing of Revenge through dodge and parry (Wait, that's still random because it's depending on avoidance, nevermind), besides that, we're fairly predictable. And this is all for the class that many people felt was the most "visceral" and "entertaining" class to play (I'm using quotes for clear bias emphasis, not because I necessarily feel this way :P).

Not that this is bad mind you, but it does lead to the belief that the class is "uninteresting" from a stats perspective. Hopefully we see some changes in 6.0; I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Crit or Haste gear be useful for me someday. :D


This is more or less the point I am trying to get across, it has become very lackluster and gives a feel of Warriors missing out of the ability to go outside the cookie cutter
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90 Troll Hunter
15125
05/10/2013 08:33 PMPosted by Ðemolition
And the benefit from haste is still nonzero. What is your point?


Barely.


Last time I checked, barely benefiting is better than not benefiting. The point isn't that haste is an omgwtfop stat for bears, it's that it still gives bears a nonzero survival benefit, while warriors get absolutely nothing from it.

And even though you may be implying that the benefit from haste is so low as to be negligible, they also benefit from crit, but that is no reason to not mention haste.
Edited by Ebonics on 5/10/2013 8:45 PM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
12850
This is more or less the point I am trying to get across, it has become very lackluster and gives a feel of Warriors missing out of the ability to go outside the cookie cutter


Which, as you've said, doesn't make us less viable or anything (there I go using the dreaded V word again); but I would like some "flavor" too Mister Ghostcrawler person :(

Or at very least that pony you promised so long ago...
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14480
Or at very least that pony you promised so long ago...


GC promised me a moose.
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