SoTR Nerfed

90 Pandaren Monk
7310
05/16/2013 10:58 AMPosted by Keten
They mitigate physical damage very effectively with enough mastery you can have a perma crit block with no charge cooldown gating use.

...What? Even if you were stacking mastery you'd have maybe 40% block. And that's just regular block, not critical block. ShoR itself would be very strong, but if you were stacking mastery you wouldn't be getting a high uptime on it--not even close to permanent.

They have an enormous amount of mitigating and survival cooldowns

DKs have more.

They have good sustained aoe dmg and threat with instant cast threat coming from HotR.

HAHAHA. HotR is instant, yes. It's also downright terrible damage/threat. If it didn't generate Holy Power or cause Weakened Blows paladins wouldn't even use it. Most AoE threat is coming from Consecration.

They can self heal with WoG/EF which also gets buffed with mastery.

Yes, we can heal ourselves with WoG (any sane Prot paladin would never take EF). But we give up our primary defensive ability to do so, and WoG only becomes effective after three or four ShoRs. Compared to, say, Expel Harm (which is basically a free heal since it just replaces a Jab), it's not very impressive.

Every stat including dps stats other then crit are very useful to them specifically haste a dps stat.

You're a monk. You should know well enough that haste isn't a DPS stat.

Thats the problem with leather tanks. they have to share dps gear but in comparison to a warrior or a dk both using plate I know my warrior wouldn't take crit or haste for any reason and a dk I know wouldn't really touch either stat maybe a tad bit of haste but nothing to the degree of a paladin with haste.
expel I guess is slightly more convenient but its quite a long cooldown and doesn't heal for anything amazing a full stacked WoG is alot and its also that you have the option if you are dealing with a boss like lei shi where no regular mitigation will really help you then you have tons of self heals and absorb and other such tricks to get by.
I know HotR is not great threat or dmg but its instant cast which some tanks have to make due with either good instant cast aoe for initial threat or good sustained aoe like DnD. im saying pally has both of those including lights hammer.
I don't know if dk's have more maybe like 1 or 2 more personal cooldowns but a paladin easily makes up for that with their raid cooldowns.
from what I was reading without trying to stack mastery and just through stat bloat in normal ToT raiding gear mastery can easily get to a point where you have 50+% dmg reduction this can still go upwards with some heroic geared pallys having 65+%
I understand its not permanent in the sense of always being up but when you need it up to mitigate is guaranteed to mitigate the % and not a chance to get a static 60% crit which never gets stronger that and with HA up you can have SotR up the entire duration easily.
Yes I went bottom to top. deal with it.
Again they may not have been broken but they were definitely bordering the line imo. they do too much too good. this nerf isn't a big deal though and honestly I feel like both nerfs are to make sure they don't start scaling stupidly with higher gear. not only can they raid heal more with more damage but like I said with stat bloat your mastery without trying will be high enough that its just mitigating so much damage and its not even something your going for.
Edited by Windwaddler on 5/16/2013 1:27 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
Thats the problem with leather tanks. they have to share dps gear but in comparison to a warrior or a dk both using plate I know my warrior wouldn't take crit or haste for any reason and a dk I know wouldn't really touch either stat maybe a tad bit of haste but nothing to the degree of a paladin with haste.

Warriors won't because they're not designed to use haste; it does nothing for them outside of increasing auto-attack speed.

DKs actually do get some benefit from haste, but mastery is their strongest defensive stat, so that's what they go after.

Haste is paladins' strongest defensive stat, so that's what they go after. For us it's not a DPS stat, just like it isn't for monks or druids. The other plate tanks weren't designed with haste in mind, so saying it's a DPS stat for them is generally true.

expel I guess is slightly more convenient but its quite a long cooldown and doesn't heal for anything amazing a full stacked WoG is alot and its also that you have the option if you are dealing with a boss like lei shi where no regular will really help you have tons of self heals and absorb and other such tricks to get around.

Definitely lots of options against magical damage. Monks are the only tank that don't have an active defense option for Lei Shi, though (barring Guard, which has too long of a cooldown to really count).

I know HotR is not great threat or dmg but its instant cast which some tanks have to make due with either good instant cast aoe for initial threat or good sustained aoe like DnD. im saying pally has both of those including lights hammer.

Thunder Clap. Keg Smash/Spinning Crane Kick. Thrash/Swipe. Blood Boil.

Also, Light's Hammer doesn't generate threat.

I don't know if dk's have more maybe like 1 or 2 more personal cooldowns but a paladin easily makes up for that with their raid cooldowns.

Paladins only have one raid cooldown. Warriors have more than that.

As for personal cooldowns, paladins have four, while DKs have seven or eight depending on talents.

from what I was reading without trying to stack mastery and just through stat bloat in normal ToT raiding gear mastery can easily get to a point where you have 50+% dmg reduction this can still go upwards with some heroic geared pallys having 65+%
I understand its not permanent in the sense of always being up but when you need it up to mitigate is guaranteed to mitigate the % and not a chance to get a static 60% crit which never gets stronger that and with HA up you can have SotR up the entire duration easily.

I'm not saying that it's not strong and it doesn't need to be nerfed (I'm the one who said the nerf doesn't bother me), but your post did imply that it was permanent.
Edited by Keten on 5/16/2013 1:45 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
7310
The perma thing was a simplified exaggeration im just saying that I regularly tank in ToT as a warrior and monk so from a warrior perspective the paladin mastery infuriates me because ours just increase crit block chance and block chance and we can already 100% block chance so we waste of that benefit. paladins get block chance,dmg mitigation and heals from their mastery and it just blows my mind it has all the benefits with nothing really being wasted.

warriors raid cooldowns are different. banner is only 10% which I guess can help but its not a whole lot but I seem to have alot of range issues with rallying cry with the only fight being tortos where im pretty sure everyone gets the benefit. however devo may be their only "raid cooldown" they still have the many ridiculous pally tricks like BoPing to remove entire mechanics or bubble sac and I believe lights hammer still heals as prot for a decent amount as well and on my holy pally I consider lights hammer one of my raid cooldowns for aoe dmg.
Ehhh DK's may have more cooldowns but I'll let it slide. they have some other weaknesses and I don't know all the cooldowns but I assume half are pretty lack luster.

I did not know LH didn't generate threat. I have yet to raid tank as a paladin weird that it doesn't do that though. again I was leaning towards a warrior comparison in that to me their overall aoe is just tricky. where as I felt pallys have it covered with both good sustained aoe but instant cast no build up required attention grabber. Im fine in burst situations like bats thats easy cause they are clumped from that start but horridon is the biggest pain in the !@# because I can only thunder clap so often and that bleed isn't an effective threat holder. thats why I started running roarbath to make up for this weakness but I still have problems with it. Of course aoe threat problems and brewmaster aren't allowed to be in the same sentence... except this one.
yea like I said haste does do something small for dk but I've seen one go for it haste is still a dps stat for you it just also adds defense which is what I'm saying none of the other plate tanks have that option to use dps stats other then str for defense let alone that stat being the best stat.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
05/16/2013 02:20 PMPosted by Windwaddler
The perma thing was a simplified exaggeration im just saying that I regularly tank in ToT as a warrior and monk so from a warrior perspective the paladin mastery infuriates me because ours just increase crit block chance and block chance and we can already 100% block chance so we waste of that benefit. paladins get block chance,dmg mitigation and heals from their mastery and it just blows my mind it has all the benefits with nothing really being wasted.

No arguments there. Warriors are still playing catch-up in a lot of ways.

05/16/2013 02:20 PMPosted by Windwaddler
however devo may be their only "raid cooldown" they still have the many ridiculous pally tricks like BoPing to remove entire mechanics

Any tank can do that as long as there's a paladin of any spec in the raid. Although it's definitely easiest as a paladin, for sure. Blizzard is sloooowly learning, though, and have made some mechanics that aren't affected by immunities.

05/16/2013 02:20 PMPosted by Windwaddler
or bubble sac

Tanks can't do that if they're actively tanking.

05/16/2013 02:20 PMPosted by Windwaddler
I believe lights hammer still heals as prot for a decent amount

It does, yes.

Ehhh DK's may have more cooldowns but I'll let it slide. they have some other weaknesses and I don't know all the cooldowns but I assume half are pretty lack luster.

Ehh. Dancing Rune Weapon and Rune Tap might be less powerful than the others, but they're all pretty good overall.

05/16/2013 02:20 PMPosted by Windwaddler
again I was leaning towards a warrior comparison in that to me their overall aoe is just tricky. where as I felt pallys have it covered with both good sustained aoe but instant cast no build up required attention grabber.

That's, again, a point where warriors are just in a bad spot. Every other tank has an instant AoE on a short cooldown. Warriors have other options, though, like Mocking Banner and Heroic Leap, which are both ranged and instant--they're just limited by their longer cooldowns.

yea like I said haste does do something small for dk but I've seen one go for it haste is still a dps stat for you it just also adds defense which is what I'm saying none of the other plate tanks have that option to use dps stats other then str for defense let alone that stat being the best stat.

Well it's not our fault that Blizzard kind of screwed up with the other two plate tanks. :P
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90 Pandaren Monk
7310
Yea I like the model I just wish they did it to all the tanks. Ive started using dps trinkets for my warrior and I'm doing good dps with no notable decrease in dmg reduction. I've had fun cheese-ing meters on pull with str pot str proc vengeance stacks and then bloodbath dragon roar (Roarbath).
alot of my points have compared them to warriors but I mean that makes the most sense and pally's beating them in pretty much all aspects is pretty sad considering pally to me is almost like a hybrid tank but a warrior is as pure a tank should could no magic just sword and board but they lack so far behind the hybrid.
Still they really just have no weaknesses imo which is my biggest problem with them. I can easily point out glaring weaknesses for each tank except a paladin.
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90 Orc Death Knight
16325
Vamp blood, bone shield, IBF, DRW and AMS are the only defensive CDs we have. You can count AoTD if you like but it's a 10 minute CD. That's five realistically, but it's really not anymore than other tanks.

Our other CDs come in the form of talents. If you want to say death pact is a defensive CD than you would similarly have to count purity, unbreakable spirit or clemency as an extra CD as well. Same goes lichborne, AMZ and purgatory. If those count as CDs for a DK than sacred shield would count for a Paladin as well.

So no, DKs really don't have an amazing repertoire of personal CDs. It's equal, just things are shifted around differently. For all intent and purpose Paladins are the only tank that have access to another shield wall in the form of holy avenger, which for argument sakes is a better shield wall with just base ShoTR, mastery buff and the amount of mastery you get passively from gear.

Paladins and monks are very strong right now for a various amount of reasons. I am more or less inclined to believe that they should be the baseline of tank balance while other tanks are brought up around them.

Dodge/parry on gear is very archaic, not interesting any nobody really goes for them. In an ideal world tanks (much like our leather wearing friends) should be sharing plate gear with DPS plate for tanking. Makes tanking much more interesting and erases some scaling problems that exist between all tanks DPS wise.

DKs and Warriors for example can do fine DPS if they actually wear full DPS gear. The problem is we don't scale with critical strike at all, haste (while still good) isn't nearly as effective as a survival stat as it is for other tanks (namely protection) and mastery is really good for DKs/Warriors while it's not nearly as amazing for the other tanks. Add that together and you see why DKs/Warriors will have scaling DPS problems. We have high mastery builds other tanks don't, and as such you see a DPS disparity.

Remove dodge/parry and make classes like DK/Warrior care more about haste and give them a reason to want critical strike and a lot of the minor issues will likely disappear.

Mind you there are still problems for DKs in other departments, but that's more of a core issue with the class. If VB had some raid CD effect, blood worm range was increased and our AoE was a little bit less devastating to use from a survival stand point we would likely be fine.

Most of the issue with protection paladins is that you're getting to a point where it's no longer active mitigation. If you do it right you can cover all bad spots where you need active mitigation in the form of SoTR and still have 60% uptime at other intervals.
Edited by Gròmmash on 5/16/2013 3:18 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
7310

Paladins and monks are very strong right now for a various amount of reasons. I am more or less inclined to believe that they should be the baseline of tank balance while other tanks are brought up around them.

While I agree with everything else you said this right here is something I hope blizzard does. My warrior only started becoming fun when I stopped focusing on min maxing (not a super serious sense) my survival and started focusing on min maxing by dps as a tank. Even then this won't really increase that much where as my brewmaster is extremely fun.
it has the damage but most of all the rotation is very on the fly. deciding when to spend EB charges and how to space out guard cooldown while keeping shuffle and tiger palm rolling all while having the spare energy to expel in emergency or having the chi ready to PB at a moments notice can make for a rotation that changes every fight depending on how things shape up.
I feel paladins are there to a lesser degree. I don't think they work nearly as hard but they are still fairly active.
If they change this about tanks though and tone these 2 down I would lose my faith in blizz.
Edited by Windwaddler on 5/16/2013 3:39 PM PDT
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90 Orc Hunter
20730
blizzard doesnt know what they're doing. prot pals are obviously not as good as dks, wars, or druids. not even sure why prot is getting nerfed. if anything, monks need to get nerfed first, along with dk/war/druids, THEN prot pals should get nerfed.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7310
blizzard doesnt know what they're doing. prot pals are obviously not as good as dks, wars, or druids. not even sure why prot is getting nerfed. if anything, monks need to get nerfed first, along with dk/war/druids, THEN prot pals should get nerfed.

0/10 try again but with more finesse this time
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90 Blood Elf Monk
11890
05/16/2013 01:09 PMPosted by Windwaddler
expel I guess is slightly more convenient but its quite a long cooldown and doesn't heal for anything amazing


Lol, doesn't heal for anything amazing my foot...

Also, dropping low in hp instantly resets it and removes the CD.

Monks are in a pretty nice spot right now honestly, shuffle is an extremely powerful mechanic, and the tier bonuses this tier make it even more ridiculous. Monk tank dps/threat is over the top as well. I couldn't say blizz would be in the wrong if they wanted to nerf monks.

I really feel the change in active mitigation when i swap between my monk and pally. Monk always-on shuffle is just too good. Chi Wave dmg/healing is incredible (and free)...

As far as prot pally mitigation, it really isn't OP at all, but this change won't really effect much.

Stop trolling the poor pallies who are seeing a nerf where nobody even thought a problem existed.

from what I was reading without trying to stack mastery and just through stat bloat in normal ToT raiding gear mastery can easily get to a point where you have 50+% dmg reduction this can still go upwards with some heroic geared pallys having 65+%


I'm already past 50 percent on my monk, and I only just barely started to stack mastery after hitting the haste plateau and EB stack (crit) plateau. That's 100% uptime. So whats your point about pallies?
Edited by Konekochan on 5/19/2013 11:23 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
7310
I don't know in what perfect vacuum bubble you have been playing in but I'd like to see it.
expel harm doesn't heal for amazing in comparison to other tank self heals. I won't bring up a blood dk because that's silly but I know WoG can easily heal for more. not implying that doesn't come with its own faults but expel harm is like I said helpful but nothing amazing.
It's also funny how people bring up that its cooldown gets reset when you are low but you have to be pretty dangerous low and it still has an energy cost.

Saying shuffle is "an extremely powerful mechanic" is like saying for a pally or warrior "oh being able to equip a shield is extremely powerful as a tank" Of course it is! shuffle is what takes us from low damage WW to being a tank brewmaster. also just realizing you are calling stagger shuffle. don't confuse the 2. Blizz would be in the wrong for nerfing them imo. the only thing they could change in the future is to nerf their scaling.

(again shuffle =/= stagger) stagger being "always on" is how they are able to tank they still need it on because they have no armor buff unlike a druid so they need it so they don't get 1 shot and even still when we take a hit out of the tanks we get hit the hardest.

chi waves healing is again nothing amazing again damage nothing amazing and its bouncing chain easily gets broken and it often does.

Not trolling and you should probably come out from the perfect bubble land because quite a few people saw a problem existed. hell I was in a board today where someone asked if they should make a prot warrior or pally and every post agreed they are both fun in their own way but if he wanted real progression or preferred more as a pug tank then he should go pally because they are so strong.

why you compare stagger to actual mitigation is beyond me. technically stagger mitigates nothing just places it elsewhere till you PB. stagger would be OP if we had the same armor as every other tank.

Not to derail the pally talk to this brewmaster bs but I had to clarify that crap.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
11890
also just realizing you are calling stagger shuffle


No, I'm not. Stagger is the mitigation, shuffle is the one hundred percent uptime buff that improves it AND gives parry.

05/20/2013 01:03 AMPosted by Windwaddler
Of course it is! shuffle is what takes us from low damage WW to being a tank brewmaster.


There are quite a few other effects of stance of the sturdy ox, maybe you should educate yourself more. Also, for one who is trying to nitpick about me calling stagger shuffle, you are doing it yourself, hmm?

05/20/2013 01:03 AMPosted by Windwaddler
why you compare stagger to actual mitigation is beyond me. technically stagger mitigates nothing just places it elsewhere till you PB.


Do you even know what mitigate is? Stagger is exactly that is exactly that. Mitigation. Here, I'll help you out Mr. Condescending.

mit·i·gate (mtgt)
v. mit·i·gat·ed, mit·i·gat·ing, mit·i·gates
v.tr.
To moderate (a quality or condition) in force or intensity; alleviate. See Synonyms at relieve.
v.intr.
To become milder.


Taking a 400k hit and turning it into a 170k hit + a dot over ten seconds really isn't alleviating anything in intensity hmm?

chi waves healing is again nothing amazing again damage nothing amazing and its bouncing chain easily gets broken and it often does.


It is a free cast and accounts for 30 percent of my healing on a fight... and on some fights i do about 45k hps. Tanking a boss it will rarely if ever get broken. So, 15k hps for free with some damage mixed in? yes plz. On the expel harm note, it regularly crits over 200k for me. That's no buildup, no cds, no buffs outside normal raid buffs and vengeance. Opposed to a pally WoG that "can" heal more... with 5 stacks, AND it takes the place of their active mitigation.

unlike a druid so they need it so they don't get 1 shot and even still when we take a hit out of the tanks we get hit the hardest.


Not sure where you're getting this info but it's flat out wrong. On a tortos kill recently we had a druid tank in with the same i level as me, we both tried a turn at tanking tortos, and I took ONE THIRD the damage he did from snapping bite.

You basically have a pocketful of your own personal (limited) experience and are trying to make generalizations.

Not trolling and you should probably come out from the perfect bubble land because quite a few people saw a problem existed


If you aren't trolling than you really ARE that stupid. I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt. Also, I will not argue that paladins are very strong tanks right now, but I was talking specifically about the base SotR mitigation amount. 30 percent is not too much. 25 pct will still be fine though because of all other paladin mechanics that make them such great tanks.
Edited by Konekochan on 5/20/2013 6:23 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
7310
If you don't think you are confused between the 2 then let me tell you that you are. you say shuffle is a ridiculous mechanic and this tier bonuses make it even more ridiculous. how do you figure that? 1 gives more stagger and the other free PB. neither of those affect shuffle. just stagger.
Monk always-on shuffle is just too good.

shuffle is only always on if you have it on unlike stagger even then the realistic best uptime still isn't 100%. more like 99.7%

So you may see now why I thought you were confused because the way you talked about it made no sense. apparently you still are confused though.

There are quite a few other effects of stance of the sturdy ox, maybe you should educate yourself more. Also, for one who is trying to nitpick about me calling stagger shuffle, you are doing it yourself, hmm?


really that damage reduction and stam buff? yea no !@#$ shuffle we will be fine with our normal static 20% stagger and small avoidance. again I believe you are confused between the 2. stagger is always on shuffle is applied but gives us a large chunk of stagger and parry. I still believe my assessment was correct. maybe you tank without shuffle on or something or maybe in your bubble world its "always on" but you can't tank without it because it makes you a tank. not stagger.

Taking a 400k hit and turning it into a 170k hit + a dot over ten seconds really isn't alleviating anything in intensity hmm?

Sure if you want to take the textbook definition but I like think of it as something a tank does to make damage in take smaller. if a warrior takes a 400k hit but crit blocks it thats 160k with no dot. That dot still makes you take damage and when it finishes guess what. you still took the full 400k hit. avoidance is 100% not taken. blocking is 40 - 80% that is never taken. stagger is damage that you will take later. yea it makes dmg intake smoother because its always on but you will still take the most damage compared to other tanks because you have the least armor (another form of mitigation) and rely on avoidance. except for in the case of a dk I guess.

Tanking a boss it will rarely if ever get broken.

how lucky for you its quite often broken for me.

Not sure where you're getting this info but it's flat out wrong. On a tortos kill recently we had a druid tank in with the same i level as me, we both tried a turn at tanking tortos, and I took ONE THIRD the damage he did from snapping bite.

You basically have a pocketful of your own personal (limited) experience and are trying to make generalizations.

I'm getting them from facts. If you get snapping bite and then let stagger tick out it will definitely be more damage taken then your druids because sturdy ox is baseline for everyother tank spec but unlike other tanks we have the lowest armor so we will flat out take more damage. yea you may PB it later but over time you will let ticks go through and the damage evens out. it looks like you took 1/3 but thats just how stagger works it always look like big hits like puncture and talon rake do no damage to us.

If you aren't trolling than you really ARE that stupid. I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt. Also, I will not argue that paladins are very strong tanks right now, but I was talking specifically about the base SotR mitigation amount. 30 percent is not too much. 25 pct will still be fine though because of all other paladin mechanics that make them such great tanks.


If you are sitting here admitting that they are very strong and that they will still be fine with a 5% nerf then I don't know if I'm the one who really is that stupid. that was the argument is that paladins were razors edge OP. when raids can't find a reason to take another tank over a paladin then there may be a problem.
Edited by Windwaddler on 5/20/2013 2:35 PM PDT
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90 Orc Hunter
20730
tl;dr - monks and pals are not op. everyone else just has less reason to be brought to raid.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16875
After reading this post, I can see that most of you make a very strong case for, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. When it comes down to it, if this nerf is bad, the real judge of how bad it is or isn't will be healers who's job it is to keep us alive. But let's face it, paladins have long been the idiot class, the noob class, the class that any idiot with a shield can play and still do, OK, requiring the least amount of skill. The problem is, that once we are no longer noobs and figure out wth we are doing, then we become a little closer to the omfg, pallies is op!!! This nerf is not going to hurt the experienced as much as it's going to hurt the noob.
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