Combat Gemming 510+ ilvl

100 Human Rogue
16420
Are there any rogues currently playing combat that have noticed shadowcraft recommending gemming more for agility than haste after around 510 ilvl? If this is true, cool, i'm gemmed correctly but if it isn't i would like to know before 6 server cenarius (9 eastern) so i can regem yet again. Would like a tip from another combat rogue before raid tonight if possible. :)
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91 Undead Rogue
8130
Take a look at Blacksad and Fierydemise. Two of the best combat rogues around. If you're lucky, one of them'll be able to clear this up.
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100 Human Rogue
16420
Awesome, was trying to think of either of their names Phantom. Thanks a ton :)
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91 Undead Rogue
8130
Correction: Fiery is currently assassination. Blacksad is still a dedicated combat rogue, though, and he's gemmed haste/agi with a focus on haste.

Although, in shadowcraft, it seems that AGI does outweigh haste for him. He's at 532 item level. However, his AGI/haste values are much closer than yours. Phantom's guess would be Rentaki's Soul Charm which scales very well with haste. Since every RPPM trinket scales differently with haste, even though Bad Juju is RPPM as well, it may not receive as much benefit.
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100 Human Rogue
16420
That's my guess as well, haste seemed to proc my trinkets more and from what i understand it will proc the legendary meta (when all the blasted secrets drop) more as well.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
17740
Shadowcraft has been tweaked this expansion to take energy capping into account, as well as handle energy generation as a whole in more detail than it did previously. So while occasional energy capping and capping during cooldowns was largely just assumed to be a minor factor and ignored last expansion, this time around shadowcraft can take that into account when it determines the value of haste.

So if shadowcraft is telling you to start gemming agility or agility/haste hybrids then it's because it's determining that that is the best thing to do for energy capping reasons.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
15720
I've tried both setups Shadowcraft suggested, and felt I got better returns going with Haste. The difference is pretty small with mine, and if I regemmed completely I'd gain a whopping 76.3 DPS out of 200k+. lol Your mileage may vary, but I'd personally suggest Haste.

I'd have to dump over 7000 Haste to not cap during CD's, and shoot myself in the foot the rest of the time doing subpar damage with weaker energy returns. This theoretically might be just grand in a Patchwerk fight, but none are.
Edited by Blacksad on 5/10/2013 7:03 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
17740
05/10/2013 07:03 PMPosted by Blacksad
I'd have to dump over 7000 Haste to not cap during CD's, and shoot myself in the foot the rest of the time doing subpar damage with weaker energy returns.
That's by no means the purpose of accounting for energy capping during cds when calculating EPs.

Energy capping is NOT a simple black and white issue where you either ignore capping or you try to prevent any and all capping. Energy capping simply means that since you don't get the full benefit of haste when capping it's overall value is somewhat less. Exactly how less depends on how often and when it happens.

It's not about killing your dps outside of cds to avoid capping. It's about balancing your dps during capping and non-capping moments for the most overall dps. As you reforge/regem away some haste into other stats your dps during cappign moments will go up some, and your dps during uncapped moments will go down some. If the overall gain is more than the over loss, then it's a net gain. So you wouldn't be dumping 7k+ haste to try to avoid capping during cds, you'd probably be dumping only a few hundred haste in order to gain a little damage in one area while sacrificing a little less damage in another.

Also, I think your comment about a patchwerk style fight is backwards. If anything a patchwerk fight would be the ideal scenario for a full-haste build, since that's where you'd have the least amount of distractions and be able to focus entirely on spending your energy as fast as possible. Non-patchwerk style fights will be more punishing in terms of energy capping since you'll have other mechanics or movement/adds/distractions/etc. and cause you to cap more often.
Edited by Pancakê on 5/10/2013 7:24 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
15720
Well, i'll eat the 76 dps and do it my way. *shrug*

I've yet to see a high ranking Combat Rogue following that advice. I can either trust Assassination playing Rogues who like to math things out, or high end players whom actually play Combat.

Either way, the difference is really pretty moot.
Edited by Blacksad on 5/10/2013 7:34 PM PDT
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100 Human Rogue
16420
Thanks pancake and blacksad, I found testing i prefer the haste method. More consistent energy returns made it possible for me to consistently continue attacking and i seemed to get more trinket proc's to boot. In the process of gemming back to haste now. The agi gemming method seems to give slightly more initial burst, but after that the lack of energy makes the rotation feel slower than i think it should. Hopefully i'll get to some of that nice heroic gear blacksad, i'm jealous lol. :)
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100 Night Elf Rogue
12630
@Blacksad Dat transmog.
Edited by Firatha on 5/11/2013 1:58 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
17740
Well, i'll eat the 76 dps and do it my way. *shrug*

I've yet to see a high ranking Combat Rogue following that advice. I can either trust Assassination playing Rogues who like to math things out, or high end players whom actually play Combat.

Either way, the difference is really pretty moot.
Well, yeah, obviously in your situation (and probably in many/most) the difference is small. I just wanted to clarify the idea behind why shadowcraft is changing the preference at those higher gear levels since your comments were kinda at the far extreme end of the spectrum rather than what it was actually suggesting.

You're sacrificing less than half of a tenth of a percent of your dps, moot indeed.

@Orgin: I find it a little hard to believe that it had you regemming enough haste away to have much of a noticeable effect on your energy regen, probably more of a mentality thing than anything else. (not saying you should or shouldn't gem that way, just that I don't think it would really have that much of an impact to call the rotation slow).
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100 Human Rogue
16420
Roughly 4k haste rating is what i lose gemming for agility, and it's probably more of a perception issue on my part than an actual slowing issue.
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90 Goblin Rogue
9720
05/10/2013 03:16 PMPosted by Orgin
Are there any rogues currently playing combat that have noticed shadowcraft recommending gemming more for agility than haste after around 510 ilvl?

Actually if you hit "auto regem" in shadowcraft it will flip flop between the two because regemming changes the stat ratios. Imo if you have three of the following: PPM trinkets, legendary meta, 522 mh 2.6aps weapon. Haste is probably slightly better.
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91 Undead Rogue
8620
05/13/2013 04:05 PMPosted by Ialgo
Are there any rogues currently playing combat that have noticed shadowcraft recommending gemming more for agility than haste after around 510 ilvl?

Actually if you hit "auto regem" in shadowcraft it will flip flop between the two because regemming changes the stat ratios.
As has been suggested by Fiery: When Shadowcraft is flip-flopping you between two different setups, go with the higher dps setup then go through each reforge (gem in this case) and do it manually. The highest dps configuration will reveal itself in time.
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100 Troll Rogue
13760
I've tried both setups Shadowcraft suggested, and felt I got better returns going with Haste. The difference is pretty small with mine, and if I regemmed completely I'd gain a whopping 76.3 DPS out of 200k+. lol Your mileage may vary, but I'd personally suggest Haste.

I'd have to dump over 7000 Haste to not cap during CD's, and shoot myself in the foot the rest of the time doing subpar damage with weaker energy returns. This theoretically might be just grand in a Patchwerk fight, but none are.


^This
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