People are now seeing too much content.

2 Worgen Warrior
0
Disclaimer: My progression is only 1/12 ToT.
Disclaimer 2: None of the below is referencing gear entitlement; I'll leave that discussion to people braver than me.

My argument is effectively this; people are getting bored and leaving because they are able to see end-game content instantly. This is due to LFR giving quick and easy access to this content. In general I feel that:


  • Upgraded gear is not enough to incentivise people to try and learn Normal Mode mechanics
  • People are put off from doing the same bosses that they have done on LFR mode over and over again
  • As a result guilds and raid groups suffer due to lack of Normal / Heroic mode raiders
  • As a result the community has gotten worse, not better
  • The game stagnates much, much, much faster because there is no new content
  • There is a certain excitement and passion about seeing content you haven't seen before that is currently missing from the game


I'd like to propose that:

  • LFR only stretches upto the previous raid (so ToES in this case)
  • That LFR would drop slightly higher ilevel gear that it currently does - close to the normal mode gear for that raid


This would help LFR raiders be a bit better geared for the current content, whilst constantly giving them content they haven't seen before and tempting them to try normal mode raids. Thanks for reading.
Edited by Randomatix on 5/12/2013 12:47 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Death Knight
6005
You can never see too much content.

/thread
Reply Quote
2 Worgen Warrior
0
I think you've twisted my words somewhat.

There is a difference between not having enough content for people to play, and always having new content in front of you.

I'm talking about the latter. You're talking about the former.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Death Knight
2615
Blizzard keeps stating that they're putting out more content than ever before, but they're not. They are just splitting their content patches in half and saying we're getting twice as much. Hell, due to not having 5 mans, I actually get the impression they're putting out less content than ever before. I only play to do the older raids for xmog purposes, got bored with the game long ago, but I'm tired of seeing them say they're giving more when they're giving the same amount, if not less.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
5990
Why do people mindlessly repeat GC's "seeing content" nonsense like it's not just a thin veneer on the truth?

Raids don't have meaningful "content" - it's not Star Wars and no one's awarding that nonsense an Emmy. People want their loot.

That aside, the only thing we know is that casuals - not raiders - are the weakest link in the WoW sub base. That suggests that a lot of people that aren't even making it to the latest raids are turned off by the game, ie people not like us, so your whole argument is basically invalid.
Reply Quote
2 Worgen Warrior
0
Why do people mindlessly repeat GC's "seeing content" nonsense like it's not just a thin veneer on the truth?

Raids don't have meaningful "content" - it's not Star Wars and no one's awarding that nonsense an Emmy. People want their loot.

That aside, the only thing we know is that casuals - not raiders - are the weakest link in the WoW sub base. That suggests that a lot of people that aren't even making it to the latest raids are turned off by the game, ie people not like us, so your whole argument is basically invalid.


What you're saying implies that Blizzard lies about its raid participation figures. I doubt that is the case.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
5990
Why do people mindlessly repeat GC's "seeing content" nonsense like it's not just a thin veneer on the truth?

Raids don't have meaningful "content" - it's not Star Wars and no one's awarding that nonsense an Emmy. People want their loot.

That aside, the only thing we know is that casuals - not raiders - are the weakest link in the WoW sub base. That suggests that a lot of people that aren't even making it to the latest raids are turned off by the game, ie people not like us, so your whole argument is basically invalid.


What you're saying implies that Blizzard lies about its raid participation figures. I doubt that is the case.

No, reading fail.

I'm saying, hardcore raiders are not the reason for sub losses. The reasons we were given were twofold: an enormous number of F2P Asian MMO competitors (not a factor in the West) and declining engagement by casual players.

I'm sure raiders are having their issues, but we actually know that LFR rates are hugely up. It's just that casuals aren't getting to LFR, or aren't entertained by such measly content, probably because it's not real content.

In other words, casuals are not raiders, yet this expansion has treated them as such.
Reply Quote
2 Worgen Warrior
0


What you're saying implies that Blizzard lies about its raid participation figures. I doubt that is the case.

No, reading fail.

I'm saying, hardcore raiders are not the reason for sub losses. The reasons we were given were twofold: an enormous number of F2P Asian MMO competitors (not a factor in the West) and declining engagement by casual players.

I'm sure raiders are having their issues, but we actually know that LFR rates are hugely up. It's just that casuals aren't getting to LFR, or aren't entertained by such measly content, probably because it's not real content.

In other words, casuals are not raiders, yet this expansion has treated them as such.


This seems like a load of nonsense.

- What stats are figures are you using to say 'casuals aren't raiders'? The majority of complaints in the past were from casuals saying they want to see more raid content. This was backed up many, many times by Blizzard's stats.

- First you say LFR rates are hugely up. Next sentence you say casual's aren't getting to LFR. Which is it?

Plus half of what you're talking about isn't even relevant. If casuals aren't raiders, then you shouldn't have any problem agreeing with me that LFR should be for content behind the latest content. Right?
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12340
more of the same content... dailies, thats not new content.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
13855
I'll see your "Access to content is making people quit"
And I'll raise you a "People who use LFR because they can't raid (for whatever reason) will quit instead of running the same 3 raids for 80% of the expansion"

Also, [[citation needed]]. You're basically posting an op-ed as fact with nothing to back up your claims.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
5990

No, reading fail.

I'm saying, hardcore raiders are not the reason for sub losses. The reasons we were given were twofold: an enormous number of F2P Asian MMO competitors (not a factor in the West) and declining engagement by casual players.

I'm sure raiders are having their issues, but we actually know that LFR rates are hugely up. It's just that casuals aren't getting to LFR, or aren't entertained by such measly content, probably because it's not real content.

In other words, casuals are not raiders, yet this expansion has treated them as such.


This seems like a load of nonsense.

- What stats are figures are you using to say 'casuals aren't raiders'? The majority of complaints in the past were from casuals saying they want to see more raid content. This was backed up many, many times by Blizzard's stats.

- First you say LFR rates are hugely up. Next sentence you say casual's aren't getting to LFR. Which is it?

Plus half of what you're talking about isn't even relevant. If casuals aren't raiders, then you shouldn't have any problem agreeing with me that LFR should be for content behind the latest content. Right?

Separating this out:

LFR rates are way up because LFR is now dominating the MoP end-game. Among casuals *still left*, it's relatively easy to see all these LFRs, and there's every possible incentive to do so. Hence more of the still-active players do.

LFR has basically replaced dungeons as end-game gearing, again leading to higher LFR rates.

But because LFR is still basically a raid - albeit a very easy one - with once a week fluky loot rewards, in an anti-social environment - it's anti-casual. It's driving casuals away, because it's not friendly in any way for these people.

It's discouraging alts, because of the long gearing up process in a pseudo-raid environment.

Now, if you're saying there should be other, more casual-friendly content (dungeons, etc.) for these players, I'd agree. I do think LFR is burning casuals out, not because they see the content and they're done, anymore than they finished a dungeon before and were done, but because they're being subjected to raid gearing and "content" at all.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
5990
To put it even more simply: the WoW sub-problem per Blizz is with casuals, and "hiding" raid content from them won't solve this problem. They're not going to be "hooked" in by being treated as second-class citizens for chintzy raids they don't like anyway.

Give them an alternative to LFR as their end-game.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
10900
Video game data has shown time and again that most players will play on the easiest setting and not replay the content at a harder setting, so it shouldn't really be a surprise that happens in WoW as well.

The problem I see in LFR is there just isn't a point to run LFR much. It's not all that fun since people are rude and just random strangers you won't see again anyways, and the gear upgrades don't matter once you get the minimum iLvl for the next tier. With VP, you can hit 500 pretty easily and I'm sure the next tier's LFR won't require more than 500 to enter.

Blizzard just really needs to tackle the social issues in WoW. It doesn't matter if you enjoy LFR or not if you have friends you enjoy hanging out with in WoW. There is plenty of stuff to do in the game, but it's just not fun without friends. I don't see how removing current tier LFR would help, unless you also reintroduce 10/25 split lockouts to encourage pugging.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Rogue
16120
While I may have only done lfr this expac (my interests are elsewhere atm), I have done content in other expacs, and I will say this to all the people who wanted to see the content as well, it's all or nothing. You get the content and everything else that goes with it or you get nothing at all. It's fair to the people who do the raids on normal and heroic mode.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Priest
10685
05/12/2013 12:52 AMPosted by Dliver
Raids don't have meaningful "content" - it's not Star Wars and no one's awarding that nonsense an Emmy. People want their loot.


I have no interest in PvE loot beyond how it makes me do dailies faster. I actually do like seeing what's in these raids, thanks.

I have little interest in rerunning, so I only do LFR when asked to by friends who want a healer. I do miss having more complicated fights than back in the old days, a little bit, but I don't have to worry about guild drama or wasting two hours preraid because a thousand things happen in real life, and if I have to drop, I can without feeling like a parasite.
Edited by Fifira on 5/12/2013 2:12 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
5990
Raids don't have meaningful "content" - it's not Star Wars and no one's awarding that nonsense an Emmy. People want their loot.


I have no interest in PvE loot beyond how it makes me do dailies faster. I actually do like seeing what's in these raids, thanks.

Ok, so would you play for 3 months waiting to see the next tier, always a tier behind actual raiders? That's the OP's suggestion: people are quitting because the content isn't hidden enough.

That if we lived in a world where you couldn't go on YouTube and see all this "content" you'd play an extra few months of an old raid tier, not minding at all being treated like a second-rate player?
Edited by Dliver on 5/12/2013 2:14 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Warlock
1565
It's entirely possible that the result of LFR being the only "casual" end game experience has caused gradually increasing resentment among people who are genuinely uninterested in large party content like raids, but feel as if that's the only content they have. However, I don't think altering LFR like the way you suggest would work or be well received by those who do like that LFR is their end game.

I think the difficulty in having this discussion is that there are so many different layers to the casual player base that you can't really throw a dart at a possible problem and expect it to not have unintended consequences for everyone else. LFR, for instance, can be tied to the declining raiding populations by removing potential raiders from the pool of normal mode raiding for any reason from "I've already done this on LFR" to their experience in LFR being their only experience with large group content. The lack of dungeons had similar affects, since now there's no small group content to do for people that just want to fuss around with alts and maybe pug into a raid; which they can't do now because of the massive wall Blizzard's erected to try and stop that playstyle from being viable for casual players.

So what can we really do about it? The answer, in the end, depends on how many more players Blizzard feels will be worth sacrificing in order to improve the gameplay experience of everyone else.

Ok, so would you play for 3 months waiting to see the next tier, always a tier behind actual raiders? That's the OP's suggestion: people are quitting because the content isn't hidden enough.


I don't think this is what OP intends, based on his comment about wanting T14 LFR gear to be closer to normals so that they can more easily access current content. I believe, and I may be wrong, that his intention is to keep current content something that people can strive to access if they so choose throught hier community. The downside to this is that we already have people wanting to raid normal+, but are unable to due to server population issues, and it has issues in that there is no LFR for the first tier of the expansion, and no lfr of the last tier (which probably isn't needed anyway due to how heavily nerfed the last tier becomes, but I digress). If both those things are addressed it might be a viable solution, but again as I said above; it boils down to how many players Blizzard feels is worth sacrificing to fix any of the numerous problems that face the near infinite layers of casual playerdom.
Edited by Bomdanil on 5/12/2013 2:23 AM PDT
Reply Quote
2 Worgen Warrior
0

Now, if you're saying there should be other, more casual-friendly content (dungeons, etc.) for these players, I'd agree. I do think LFR is burning casuals out, not because they see the content and they're done, anymore than they finished a dungeon before and were done, but because they're being subjected to raid gearing and "content" at all.


This isn't the point of my discussion; but obviously everyone wants more content, hardcore and casual.
Reply Quote
90 Goblin Shaman
8435
OP- it wouldn't work.

Why? Because exactly WHEN would people be able to do the final raid of the expac? Even the LFR version. Kind of defeats the purpose of people being able to see the content while it's current.

It's fine the way it is.
Edited by Jujubiju on 5/12/2013 2:40 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Priest
7935
A lot of my friends, even those who like to raid (like myself) quit WoW for a variety of reasons. Many of them said that MoP made the grind into a chore. One of my friends who quit loves to grind towards a goal. He is an achievement hunter who relishes working long and hard just to get that extra few points on his achievements score. Even he said that MoP was too tedious. The time to reward ratio just feels off.

This, in my opinion, can be attributed to certain things. Gated Valor Gear, Gated Dailies, and the LFR loot system. The extreme number of dailies at the start of the XPac just felt like a wall of "I DON'T WANNA," to a lot of players. However, they were forced to do these to spend their Valor effectively which is important enough to a lot of people to make it feel mandatory. Then there were the recipes for high end crafting that were put behind daily reps. This by itself isn't so bad. However, then those dailies were gated behind yet more dailies. For people who like crafting this forced dailies upon them. Again, to some people this is important enough to make it feel mandatory.

As for the LFR loot system. It just feels bad. I get that one shouldn't expect loot all the time but the LFR loot system just tends to feel crappy. Especially when you use a bonus roll and get nothing of value (except gold which is meh). I don't think it even needs a higher drop rate. Just something that says "If you keep at it you'll get something." Valor gear doesn't really count. See the first paragraph.

These are, in my experience, areas that casual players tend to be very commonly found in. All of these things are things that are "on my own time," activities. In MoP they are just... They just feel worse than they use to.

Me? I raid and so even when I don't get something in LFR I can say "Meh, I'll get it on normal." I also am raiding ToT regularly and so with the Shado Pan Assault I am getting rep faster than I can spend my Valor (due to the cap) so I don't notice that it is gated. I don't know how fast it'd be with just LFR.

This is all just as I see it as a not no casual player.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]