Warrior buffs enough?

Are the warrior buffs enough?

25% defensive stance again is nice but still can't sit in it and stance cd is excessive.
3 minute shield wall is good as well, but shield wall is still an outdated mechanic.

Personally, i would like to see some kind of magic defensive or a mobility buff.
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90 Pandaren Rogue
2285
well i can promise you that you arent getting any more mobility
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Are the warrior buffs enough?

25% defensive stance again is nice but still can't sit in it and stance cd is excessive.
3 minute shield wall is good as well, but shield wall is still an outdated mechanic.

Personally, i would like to see some kind of magic defensive or a mobility buff.


Yes those buffs are enough. In fact I'd say they're too much and they just need to nerf other classes and bring them to our level. It's not that warriors are bad, it's that rogues, mages, dks, ferals, hunters, and priests are all overpowered.


uummm you have 2 spell reflects, how is that not magic defensive? and you cave the option to have 2 charges along with your heroic leap and intervene onto banner/teammate.

and how is shield wall outdated? because you cant tunnel someone without swapping to a shield for a bit to get heals?


Nobody good uses MSR, safeguard is too good.

Look at combat readiness vs. shield wall.

Shield Wall: 3 min cd, 40% DR, 12 sec duration, lose at least 70% of your damage output while using it.

Combat Readiness: 2 min cd, 50% DR, 20 sec duration, no damage loss.

So yes, outdated. A lot of classes have damage reduction abilities that they can use and still stay offensive the whole time. I don't agree with it either, but like I said above it would be fine if they would simply nerf other classes and bring them in line rather than buffing us more to compensate for the fact that other classes do way too much damage and have brainless amounts of instant CC they can spam.
Edited by Uoyredrum on 5/13/2013 12:50 PM PDT
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90 Orc Warrior
17225
We don't need more mobility, and our defenses against casters are not abnormally bad. You underestimate 25% defensive stance. To give you an idea, it has about the same potency as barkskin (barkskin = 20% damage reduction + no crit, vs. 25% damage reduction flat), but has practically no CD. If you anticipate burst coming you can shift into defensive stance and eat the whole thing... usually without having to wall.

Warrior mobility is already really good.

What we need is something we can do for our teammates. Banners and such are nice and so is rallying cry, but we lack other things. We have no offensive dispel, no defensive dispel, no off-heals, no real peels, no real CC... the only thing we can do is pump out lots of damage and stay on target. It's really 1-dimensional.
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uummm you have 2 spell reflects, how is that not magic defensive? and you cave the option to have 2 charges along with your heroic leap and intervene onto banner/teammate.

and how is shield wall outdated? because you cant tunnel someone without swapping to a shield for a bit to get heals?


You have no real idea what you're talking about, nobody ever takes mass spell reflect. Sry reflect doesnt work like cloak that negates all spells, it just reflects and always the spell you dont want to.

What we need is something we can do for our teammates. Banners and such are nice and so is rallying cry, but we lack other things. We have no offensive dispel, no defensive dispel, no off-heals, no real peels, no real CC... the only thing we can do is pump out lots of damage and stay on target. It's really 1-dimensional.


Agreed, we need some group utility, maybe a new Rampage that gives 1 rage every time teammates crit.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
5835
Shield Wall: 3 min cd, 40% DR, 12 sec duration, lose at least 70% of your damage output while using it.

Combat Readiness: 2 min cd, 50% DR, 20 sec duration, no damage loss.


Combat Readiness begins as 10% damage reduction and requires being hit 5 times to stack to 50%. If you stop attacking the rogue for 10s the effect ends prematurely.
If I pop combat readiness at 15%, your next attack is reduced by 10%. If you pop shield wall at 15%, the next attack you receive is reduced by 40%.

Pointing out that they aren't exactly comparable. You sacrifice damage and have a longer cool down in exchange for more of an "oh !@#$" button. I get to keep damage as a reward for predicting a swap and popping CR before my health is too low :)
Edited by Natashya on 5/13/2013 1:33 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
7970
Nobody good uses MSR, safeguard is too good.

Look at combat readiness vs. shield wall.


That's that point though. Why should you have to have them both? Blizzard said they wanted people to make decisions and changes talents on situations and matches. Also, I really don't think comparing different class abilities to each other is a good thing because this game has become stale enough with class homogenization.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
17130
Warriors have too many "moobilities."
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90 Undead Rogue
4445


Look at combat readiness vs. shield wall.

Shield Wall: 3 min cd, 40% DR, 12 sec duration, lose at least 70% of your damage output while using it.

Combat Readiness: 2 min cd, 50% DR, 20 sec duration, no damage loss.

So yes, outdated. A lot of classes have damage reduction abilities that they can use and still stay offensive the whole time. I don't agree with it either, but like I said above it would be fine if they would simply nerf other classes and bring them in line rather than buffing us more to compensate for the fact that other classes do way too much damage and have brainless amounts of instant CC they can spam.


The knock on CR is stack time. The damage mitigation is not immediate and only stacks against physical attacks (so if you pop it against caster damage it's unlikely to do a whole lot of good). It's also a talented ability.
Edited by Crookston on 5/13/2013 1:44 PM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
4305
feral sucks lol
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90 Undead Warlock
7980
Warriors should be fine.

3 minute Wall and 25% Defensive Stance are good.

Only changes I would make at this point would be basic redesigns that I think would be beneficial in the long run and QoL adjustments.

Reck and Shield Wall no longer have shared cooldown

Revenge and Shield Block (old version) return for DPS specs so there's actually a playstyle difference between 2h/Sword and Board OR Shield Wall doesn't require a shield equipped (either make weapon swapping integrated and meaningful, or just take it out; one or the other).

Spell Reflection 15 second cooldown, glyph removed.

Passive reduction on snares, roots, and stuns by 10% OR reduction of Charm and Stun effects by 20% (old Iron Will).

Damage reduced slightly

(I may get flamed for this one)

Sudden Death no longer procs Colossus Smash, but instead causes your next Colossus Smash to ignore additional armor OR your next Colossus Smash to not trigger the cooldown, allowing two back to back.

This would allow our damage to be less random, and be based more around consistent, powerful single-target pressure, planning for Colossus Smash windows (since it would now have a fixed 20 second CD).

In addition, our defensive mechanics would be less outdated with the lower CD on Shield Wall and Spell Reflection, Shield Wall now being allowed after using Recklessness, and the ability to go sword and board with actual effects and still put out reasonably meaningful pressure.

There are a couple more things I would do, but nothing worth mentioning here (though it still rankles me that Warriors in Wrath had 60% reduction Shield Wall on a 3 minute CD and it wasn't considered OP, but it had to have the cooldown increased AND the benefit reduced, and it's only now being partially reverted.
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90 Human Death Knight
12330
xcuze me plz how r dk op
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Look at combat readiness vs. shield wall.

Shield Wall: 3 min cd, 40% DR, 12 sec duration, lose at least 70% of your damage output while using it.

Combat Readiness: 2 min cd, 50% DR, 20 sec duration, no damage loss.

So yes, outdated. A lot of classes have damage reduction abilities that they can use and still stay offensive the whole time. I don't agree with it either, but like I said above it would be fine if they would simply nerf other classes and bring them in line rather than buffing us more to compensate for the fact that other classes do way too much damage and have brainless amounts of instant CC they can spam.


The knock on CR is stack time. The damage mitigation is not immediate and only stacks against physical attacks (so if you pop it against caster damage it's unlikely to do a whole lot of good). It's also a talented ability.


With as fast as all melee hit in the current state of the game, it stacks to full almost instantly. Also the fact that it doesn't stack against magic is irrelevant due to cloak (and it being better than shield wall by comparison).
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Shield Wall: 3 min cd, 40% DR, 12 sec duration, lose at least 70% of your damage output while using it.

Combat Readiness: 2 min cd, 50% DR, 20 sec duration, no damage loss.


Combat Readiness begins as 10% damage reduction and requires being hit 5 times to stack to 50%. If you stop attacking the rogue for 10s the effect ends prematurely.
If I pop combat readiness at 15%, your next attack is reduced by 10%. If you pop shield wall at 15%, the next attack you receive is reduced by 40%.

Pointing out that they aren't exactly comparable. You sacrifice damage and have a longer cool down in exchange for more of an "oh !@#$" button. I get to keep damage as a reward for predicting a swap and popping CR before my health is too low :)


It takes 10 seconds for it to drop off, which is almost the full duration of shield wall. So basically it's either keep damaging into it, giving it higher DR than shield wall (which is fine due to leather), or swap targets which obviously means the rogue stops (mostly) taking damage. Which is basically the point of defensive cooldowns. The point is, it has a ramp up time but has no offensive drawbacks which is bad, and neither do half of the other classes damage reducing cooldowns. They should ALL have offensive drawbacks, and they shouldn't remove the shield requirement from shield wall, but since theyre probably not going to add downsides to half of these cooldowns, warriors need some help to make the cooldown more "modern" by comparison since that's what everyone else has. I'd take a DR nerf to shield wall for not having to use a shield with it, or even a duration nerf, but there is literally no argument it's an outdated mechanic.
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90 Undead Rogue
4445


The knock on CR is stack time. The damage mitigation is not immediate and only stacks against physical attacks (so if you pop it against caster damage it's unlikely to do a whole lot of good). It's also a talented ability.


With as fast as all melee hit in the current state of the game, it stacks to full almost instantly. Also the fact that it doesn't stack against magic is irrelevant due to cloak (and it being better than shield wall by comparison).


It doesn't stack instantly. It takes a couple seconds. A lot can happen in 2 or 3 seconds.

Cloak is whole different ability. And it lasts 5 seconds. 40% over 12s versus 100% over 5s. Cloak also has multiple purposes for Rogue. A lot of the time, it's not defensive. It's to clear dots for a restealth, or to unroot yourself, or to make sure that poly doesn't interrupt your burst. You're comparing apples to oranges. You never have to Wall to get back on target. It is purely defensive.

I like how you make an argument comparing one ability to another, then don't like when the flaws are pointed out so you point to another ability. WHAT ABOUT THAT ONE, THAT ONE IS BS TOO

Warriors will be fine. Your defenses are going to be pretty good. Your damage and mobility are superb. If they give you back a significant amount of control or even better abilities, you'll go back into God Mode.
Edited by Crookston on 5/13/2013 6:54 PM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
4445
\
So basically:
- We're the most vulnerable class to roots/snares in the game
- Only melee class with no built-in speed boost (unless you count the glyph of +run speed while enraged that NOBODY takes)
- We have the worst snare in the game, Hamstring. Has to be applied every 3 globals, costs rage, does nothing else
- We do the least damage from range of any class, virtually nil
- All our damage is physical so armor affects it more than any other class
- Worst PvP resource in the game, Arms is constantly rage starved even in Battle Stance
- Arms is one of the absolutely lowest DPS specs right now, Fury is mediocre
- Our defenses vs magic are still worse than most other melee specs, ditto our self healing


-No, you're not
-Your mobility is terrific and made up for in other areas.
-Disable says "lol"
-You don't have to be at range, and Rogue is the same unless they take ST, and most rogues do not take ST.
-Okay. But your damage is still really pretty good.
-And other specs are constantly energy starved even without passive mitigation.
-DPS doesn't really matter so much in PVP. It's about burst windows.
-Your magic defensive abilities are a little lackluster. But you can smother a wizard, too. And rogues would kill for 2nd wind.
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90 Undead Warlock
7980
-No, you're not


Yes, we are. Provide a counterexample or your point is invalid.

-Disable says "lol"


Disable is leagues and leagues better than Hamstring

It's literally Hamstring that refreshes itself and still has Improved Hamstring thrown in.

-You don't have to be at range, and Rogue is the same unless they take ST, and most rogues do not take ST.


ST is overwhelmingly the PvP talent choice.

-Okay. But your damage is still really pretty good.


But it's the most easily countered. And it's really only good within burst windows with CS or cooldowns up.

-DPS doesn't really matter so much in PVP. It's about burst windows.


Generally, this is true, but Warriors are supposed to be a pressure-with-burst-windows class. Our filler, Overpower, crits for 30-35k on geared players at best. Only Mortal Strike and Slam do any decent damage; MS has a 6-second cooldown and Slam drains our rage bar incredibly fast.

-And other specs are constantly energy starved even without passive mitigation.


WW is not Energy starved, neither are Rogues if you play them right. Feral is supposed to have crap regen, it's why all their moves hit so hard.

Warriors rarely go above 50 rage in Battle Stance and spend 30 rage for our damaging attacks, 10 rage on our filler.

It's uncommon to break 30 rage if in Defensive Stance. Our utter lack of pressure while defensive is probably our biggest issue.

-Your magic defensive abilities are a little lackluster. But you can smother a wizard, too. And rogues would kill for 2nd wind.


A little?

Casters are the biggest problem for Warriors by far, we can mitigate one cast every 25 seconds. We have to tank everything else.

Second Wind isn't even that good. It heals for ~7.5k in arenas in full gear, without an MS effect.
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