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you cant really compare the rolls for a tank you can do all the mechanics masterfully and hit your buttons wrong and still be ok,
for dps you can do everything right but if youre doing a horrible rotation then youre pretty useless. or you can do great dps and fail at things like interrupts and what not and youll be fine.
different roles are different.
I've got multiple kills on bosses that I have no idea what the mechanics actually do since they don't affect me while tanking.
Some mechanics don't affect tanks, but other mechanics ONLY affect tanks. How many DPS can even name which boss has Talon Rake as an ability, let alone what it does or how to handle it? Healers might know, if they are particularly aware and clued-in.
I agree that historically tanking was by far the easiest of the raid roles, I think it has gotten significantly harder in MoP.
THAT SAID: as long as the tank is mediocre enough to survive to the enrage timer and not cause his healers to let dps die, that is about as far as his skill cap can take him. Everything else will be negligible to the raid. Healing is the same way. Hard to do, but once you hit the enrage timer, not much more you can ever do.
DPS on the other hand, there is no ceiling. The more dps you have, the better your raid does and the faster you down a boss.
My 2 cents on it.
Edited by Chuinshao on 5/15/2013 2:28 PM PDT
Not really a wow expert but from the comments I've read maybe dps is hard, never said it was easy, but when it comes to deaths in raids for example, a tanks death is way more effective then a dps, unless 10 or so dps die. So maybe dps could be harder then tanking, but if I was healing I would be more concerned to keep the tank alive rather then a dps player. Really the whole point of this post was because the tanks always get the blame for wipes. A bad tank is a lot more noticeable then a bad dps. Only have a 467 item lvl so I'm not really a high end tank but it's just a game so whateva. Really what I'm trying to get at this is a dps can get away with so much more then a tank. No one can really blame a single dps in a raid. Tanks really stand out when mistakes are made. Like other ppl said tanks are a ton less forgiving then dps. Really shouldn't of put it in terms of difficultly but in terms of forgiveness.
Edited by Creorducci on 5/15/2013 2:47 PM PDT
It is my experience that tanking is less complicated than DPSing, but with a higher consequence for failure.
DPS fails: Healers get stressed, tank gets stressed, boss may or may not still die depending on the failure mode.
Tank fails: Somebody almost always dies, and it's usually a wipe.
90 Tauren Warrior
I'm aghast at how many people think it's hard to move on jin'rok when you get focus lightning. Why is that an example of a hard thing to do? Keep in mind that if you don't have a lot of time to react it means either you're positioned badly, or your tank is. What I'm saying is that your tank has an effect on how easy it is for you to get away from focused lightning, and if you're really struggling with it, it might be your tanks ^_^
Same thing with Horridon. We expect our tanks to take one of the interruptible adds so we can stack all of our dps on the other. They have to do this *and* pick up the new adds *and* interrupt the dinomancer (dps will do it if they can, but generally speaking the dyno is on the tank before he starts casting) *and* make sure the mobs aren't standing in the bad *and* make sure they're minimizing their movement for the mdps.
I won't say it's more difficult than dps roles, but if your dps is really required to do as much as you guys are describing, it may be because your tanks aren't all that skilled. Besides which, Horridon is harder on the healers than any other role with the exception of possibly the dps you're using to fill in the gaps of your dispel coverage.
A skilled tank increases your dps and makes your life easier, but you don't always see it. When you come out of the lightning phase on jin'rok, does your tank stand there, grab him, and then try to pull him straight backwards, or does your tank set up at the outside of his hit box, *turn him* so the mdps can get behind him quicker, and then pull him roughly parallel with the pool?
Tanking is remarkably subtle despite their major mistakes being so detrimental to the raid as a whole. that subtlety is a part of why people think tanking is so easy. Being a skilled tank is every bit as difficult as the other roles, it's just different.
I just don't recommend tanking for beginners. If a dps does a mistake, nobody will probably even notice. If a tank does a mistake, everyone dies (i am exaggerating a bit). The main requirement to be a decent tank is knowing boss fight mechanics very well. Everyone should study fights beforehand but for tanks there is no way around.
Hard to do, but once you hit the enrage timer, not much more you can ever do.
That's why I don't like hard enrages. If the limit on fight length is something like a stacking buff to boss damage/stacking DoT on the raid, or a gradually decreasing CD on some major boss ability/gradually increasing resource gain for bosses with a resource, or bad stuff covering increasing amounts of the room, then the skill of the tanks and healers affects how long you can stay alive and gives the dps more time to finish off the boss. And not just how well they play during the soft enrage phase (if it is a separate phase) -- the less mana the healers have to use the whole fight, the more they have available to extend the soft enrage as long as possible and get the kill.
Hard enrages are arbitrary and frustrating, but on top of that, they don't allow the defensive side of the raid to contribute more past "well, we all survived until time ran out". (Other than by switching to DPS, I guess, but that's not really what they're there for.)
I always have felt the skill disparity depended on your level of raiding, what you were raiding, and when you were raiding it.
Hitting content, especially now with active mitigation, when undergeared can prove a pretty significant challenge. I think the fights fluctuate where the required skill needs to be. It's not as simple as most challenging to least challenging.
When content demands that you survive while contributing a significant portion of the necessary raid damage the needed ability of the tank rises.
As long as tanks control raid movement, I stand firmly by that the role is more demanding then credit is sometimes given. Do heroic content with a new tank and you will wipe repeatedly to the most frustrating of wipes.
And from a raid demanding but not raid encounter demanding perspective: you can't miss a raid without hurting your guild on progression outside of rare occurrences. We have DPS (and to a less extent healers) post that they will be late or a miss a day all the time. The way the trifecta places so much emphasis on tanks (unfairly or not) forces the tank to be someone who can miss little without hurting a lot.
Take it by a case to case basis is all I'm sayin'. In some guilds and on some fights and some days, we are the toughest role to do. Other times-- not so much.
I prefer to appreciate everyone and realize that it takes a group to kill a boss and managing that group is the biggest hurdle. Tip your hats off to the GMs of raiding guilds. (And never piss off your healers.)
Edited by Xchi on 5/16/2013 2:30 AM PDT
DPS has the highest skill ceiling.
Healing requires the most foresight and coordination between the healing team.
Tanking requires raid awareness, and at least above average skill, especially with Druid or Monk. A good tank isn't too hard to find, but a bad tank is hoooorible.
Demo has it right.
Lol, you make it sound like tanks just stand there with their thumbs up their *****.
Ive played both, and really is nothing to dpsing(lol ele shamans and chain lightning.) Look at fights where dps have to get mechanics and 90% of them fall apart. Most notable one being constructs, another being the pheromones. Then you have the major "watch your feet" mechanics with the eye sores, diffusion, Lightning novas, sand traps, and frozen orbs, and its the tanks job to not only move out of that **** himself, but to move the mobs out too. You have plenty of tanks out there who do the BARE minimum for their job, and expect healers to pick up the slack, which can be said for any class. Ive seen mooks in lfr, with 510+ ilvl pulling 90k dps.
I take less ticks from diffusion than nearly every single one of our dps, and im standing right in the bosses face the entire time. I grab upwards of 14 feed pools during heroic ji kun(3 tank strat.)
You can have some derp play a tank and get carried by healers and other tank, but not NEARLY as easy as being a derp dps, and get carried by 24 other people in the raid.
Maybe its cause I play a warrior and TRY to benefit my raid with all my utility, and cant just stand there like a log, grabbing everything in sight with my healing aggro, or ridiculous aoe damage, or toss off every debuff a boss throws at me, but I UTILIZE my class.
PS, your list is completely dependent on your strategy for that fight, as its VERY bias towards not utilizing tanks at all, apparently.
Sandbolts should be covered by either both or at least one of the tanks, a warrior being able to pummel, dis shout, pummel again, mass spell reflect(cause i believe its a direct spell, not at the feet like water bolt, but not sure, we have it on lockdown), then back to pummel again.
Dinomancers can be(and should be interrupted by ranged casters and tanks) and tanks(maybe not palys or monks) are fighting for aggro depending on ToTs or MDs cause we have to actually manage our AoE CDs for fights that have continuously spawning adds.
Dragging lightning... ok, something tanks dont have to deal with, but you look at diffusion, and tanks CANNOT get hit by that ****, then go into taking hits to the face again, while healers are still running around, with only hots healing, and myself and other tank are almost at the bottom of damage taken for that.
In a situation of numbers, being top dps is just as much about gear as it is when to press your buttons, and theres hardly any mechanics that dps deal with that tanks dont(while tanking or offtanking mind you.) While there are some fights like that, there are fights/strats that completely rely on tanks not being bad. Also note, more than half the people posting in here dont even do current heroic bosses, which is where youre really going to see people who cant deal with mechanics.
Not everyone can tank, let alone heroics. Plenty of my 5 man experiences and new tank recruits have proven that. Keyboard turning, not using cds properly, not managing glyphs properly as they apply to the current progress fight, or just simply being terrible at standing out of ****(which is detrimental to the raid, unlike most dps situations.)
There are some fights that made tanking rather annoying in which case I would doubt what Demo said. Other than those few far and wide fights I've not seen one in awhile. Other than that Demo is right. I would add that most everything is trivial when you know what to do anymore. You just have to be conscious enough to have some clue as to what's going on.
thats the thing with tanking its easy. its hard to tank well, positioning,timing,communication and general raid awareness are what make the most difference.
a good(great) tank will position the boss for so its easier for the dps to get to the back/side to getting rid of the higher parry/dodge req, increasing the efficiency of the dps,
timing when to use there cds well increases there survival and reduces healing required on them
communicating and raid awareness help when dropping your raid-wallesk abilities, to help the healers keep everyone alive
a regular tank is only focusing on there threat and staying alive personally
and bad tanks die causing wipes blaming the heals and dps for it
Saying which is hardest is pretty stupid tbh. tanking used to be easy but I think they have brought it a little more in line.
Tanks have rotation/priority skills just like dps that they need to keep up to survive optimally. bad tanks get hit harder but get those mistakes carried by good healers.
Healers have to adapt the most fight to fight and must manage resources the most. why everyone is throwing them in the middle is a little confusing. Good healing is fairly hard in progression style raiding.
I won't argue good dps isn't hard. in normals I believe dps'ing is easy there is alot of room for error in heroic enrage timers tighten and the room for error is much smaller and not making errors keeping good dps is pretty tough ill admit.
I swear if anyone here is trying to argue all tanking comes down to is holding aggro needs to shut up and go back to WotLK. tanks have rotations if they don't execute them well then they will mitigate much less.
These unappreciative types of conversation are for the uninformed and the dramatically inclined.
It is not difficult to be a tank.
It is absolutely difficult to be a good tank.
Thinking otherwise is elitist and wildly ungrateful. It's not our fault that the design of our role makes our performance requirement easy to meet, but it is entirely your fault if you can't recognize how being better than good enough is as difficult as it is important for tanking.
Maybe you just haven't played with a good tank yet.
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