Tanks Are Not As Easy As They Seem To Be

100 Tauren Druid
15570


DerPS are a dime a dozen...good DPS are a god send


It's DumPS. Never go DumPS.
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
It's really not that important to be a great tank for progression, you just need to be consistent and never ever ever ever make mistakes, since a tank making a mistake (even a minor one) often means a raid wipe.

Like I'd say missing a ShoR for Talon Rake because you were at 2 holy power and tunneling is a minor mistake, relatively. If that's a 3rd stack of Talon Rake, you have no cds, and Sacred Shield just fell off? Well... that minor mistake just killed you (at least on heroic), might kill a melee DPS, and basically wiped you.

I disagree about DPS having the highest skill ceiling, healing almost certainly does as there is no perfect "right" call to make anywhere.
Edited by Kangarooster on 5/18/2013 9:06 AM PDT
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48 Human Rogue
3510
It's really not that important to be a great tank for progression, you just need to be consistent and never ever ever ever make mistakes, since a tank making a mistake (even a minor one) often means a raid wipe.


*Hey kid remember baseball is easy, except if you make ONE MISTAKE WE ALL LOSE!!*

*Remember ... easy*
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
Probably should have included a few more "evers" in there. :)

The important part of the post was that maximizing survivability and damage aren't nearly as important as not messing up as a tank, though. And there are scenarios where if DPS or healers make minor mistakes, it will wipe the raid; it just happens that those scenarios happen much more frequently for tanks.

Doesn't make it hard. I mean, accidentally taunting the wrong head on Megaera and consequently having it breathe on the raid - minor mistake from a mistarget. Still can end up being a raid wipe, but is it hard to prevent that? Hell no.
Edited by Kangarooster on 5/18/2013 2:35 PM PDT
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94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
A breath on the raid on normal doesnt even matter.

It happens once a week from padding too hard during rampage
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
A breath on the raid on normal doesnt even matter.
Don't be a moron. You know what I mean by the example.
Edited by Kangarooster on 5/18/2013 2:52 PM PDT
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94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
05/18/2013 02:51 PMPosted by Kangarooster
A breath on the raid on normal doesnt even matter.
Don't be a moron. You know what I mean by the example.


And my point is we have a lot more room than you make it sound.

The things that we can actually wipe the raid with a small mistake on are pretty rare, its just more noticeable because half the raid is dead by the time you get a rez
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
For you and me, yes, taunting that Megaera head is not an issue.

Actually, lemme revise that. It COULD be an issue; let's say I taunt the red one accidentally and a poison bomb lands right before and after the breath. That's a raid wipe, unless your healers are amazing and someone managed to throw out a LOT of raid cds.

For the people who have it as relevant progression or recent kills, it's an issue. Easily. And again, it's an example - for a more relevant one, if you care to engage, is when Ji-Kun decides to throw down multiple Feed Pools in the exact same area. I know I (and a few other guildies) have died to trying to soak a pool that seemed like one - and then boom, right after I stepped in it I take 4 ticks at the same time. If I die there and my brez is flying, especially on heroic, we're kind of screwed.

I know there is a lot more room than that, even if you do make mistakes. But by far, for progression, the mark of a great tank is that they do not mess up ever - or at least not often. It really doesn't matter whether you mitigated 100k more damage than the other tank (if you both stayed alive) if you mess up more often, even if it's just a little bit more often. And like I just said, it's not hard to avoid making these mistakes.
Edited by Kangarooster on 5/18/2013 3:07 PM PDT
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90 Undead Death Knight
13980
Mogu Shan Vaults was all about tanks

was it some kind of failure? did they find alot of people quit playing tanks due the the increased responsibility they had in MSV?

there must be some reason why the expansion started off that way then quickly dropped it and has not revisted fights like that again since.
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90 Draenei Shaman
10105
Tanking is not that bad. I've got three tanks, and I enjoy playing each and everyone one of them. Over the years I have learned a simple but true rule of thumb when it comes to tanking.

If the healer dies its the tanks fault.
If the tank dies its the healers fault.
If the dps die its their own damn fault.

With that understanding its simple. Tanks can only do what a tank can do. Without healers to keep tanks alive, yes you'll wipe. However, you'll wipe just as fast if all your dps is dead and the boss is only hitting you, and theirs no dps hitting on the boss, in most cases.
Edited by Jantar on 5/21/2013 7:17 AM PDT
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100 Pandaren Monk
17000
After playing a dps for years and now for this expansion switched to tanking this is my opinion on the matter. Being very good at dps is the hardest role in the game. harder than tanking definately, which I know someone had sad earlier. However some of you have said the difference in a mediocre tank and great tank isn't really visible. I very much disagree with this.

A mediocre tank can easily get away with boss mechanics and do their job through all of the content. A great tank can carry a large portion of the raid. As an example you say on Horridon it's the dps' job to interrupt the dinomancer to prevent boss heals, yes this is true but what is the tank doing at this point they can interrupt too. I find myself interrupting them more than any of the dps and I usually end that fight as the 2nd highest dps.

On council our kill method was tailored around keeping Malakk and Sul tanked next to eachother the entire fight and making the tanks run back and forth for the taunt switch. This helps cleave damage on sul and usually ends up making me top dps on that fight. Whatever tank is on Mar'li will also help kill/cc the spirit when it comes out not just the dps.

To quickly give a few more examples on Dark Animus the tank pretty much controls the pace of the entire fight depending on your strategy and Iron Qon I tank until 4 stacks of the debuff and get BoP'd by our pally healer to boost my dps because our low dps was a problem with that fight, and I almost always top dps on that fight.

I could give more examples but my main point is that a great tank will always be a huge asset to your raid and can make up for losses in other areas of your raid.
Edited by Shizukaze on 5/21/2013 8:58 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Warrior
14750
Eh. I don't really like these compare roles difficulty threads, because a good player is a good player and they are going to make a huge difference to the outcome of the attempt regardless of the role they have taken.

A lot of times tanks don't have to deal with the mechanics that DPS do, but I actually think they've done a better job this tier and this expac with making tank specific mechanics more interesting.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
11430
Imo dps have it pretty easy, well ranged dps. As long as you move out of stuff stack when supposed to, and interrupt its all gravy just sit back and pew pew. Healers imo have the roughest jobs, they have to make critical choices sometimes with triage..who lives who dies. They are constantly playing the catchup game. Tanking is harder than it was in previous xpac no doubt, and on some fights tanks are constantly moving, facing the boss keeping up AM, trying to make life easier on the heals some tank classes may have it easier than others. Because lord knows the heals are busy trying to keep up the dps that is playing in the sand, so a good tank that can keep up his defenses and mitigation is a godsend.
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23 Dwarf Priest
0
I have raiding experience since MC (vanilla).
I have tried every role in raid. This is (clearly) not my main, heck my main is not even on this account.

The difficulty should go like this :
Heroics and progression : Healing >> Tanking >> DPSing
Farming : DPSing > Tanking > Healing... yes, DPSing is harder, not because of the mechanics, but because of the competition against other DPS a.k.a epeen stroking time - also DPS often get yelled "MOARPEWPEWPL0X - WE NEED TO GO TO SLEEP EARLIER"
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100 Night Elf Druid
17585
I can't be bothered reading every derped out reply, but here's my $0.02. Carrying a tank in LFR on any fight not forcing a 2 tank mechanic is easy. Sure that might mean that being a tank is easy because you can be carried.

Being a *good* tank is much harder than being a good DPS though, because you have to watch everyone, everything, and correct for those tunnel-visioned damned DPS who aren't paying attention.

Carrying bad people as a tank is the least appreciated of roles.
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100 Night Elf Druid
17585
A breath on the raid on normal doesnt even matter.

It happens once a week from padding too hard during rampage


How is that even possible if your tanks are doing the right thing? Rampage over, both taunt the appropriate head, move to position, plenty of time before a breath. If your DPS are anywhere near the tank threat at that point, your tank isn't doing enough damage/threat.
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100 Night Elf Druid
17585
Hard enrages are arbitrary and frustrating, but on top of that, they don't allow the defensive side of the raid to contribute more past "well, we all survived until time ran out". (Other than by switching to DPS, I guess, but that's not really what they're there for.)


Hard enrages are to stop 30 minute fights like Sulfuran where half the DPS died and it was the 5 tanks and 15 healers trying to kill stuff pre-heal.
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90 Human Warrior
4445
Saying one role is "easy" and another role is "hard" is arbitrary. Each role's performance is important to the success/failure of the raid, and it largely depends on the fight itself who has it harder. Blizzard has done a good job of setting up different fights to give the big "challenge" of that fight to different roles.

Tank dies due to _______? High chance of loose bosses and /or mobs killing other group members.

DPS dies due to ______? Depending on the size/performance of the others, high chance boss won't be downed in time to avoid Berserk. Plus, the longer the boss/mob is alive, the longer it has to exercise its mechanics, and increases the chances of more mistakes.

Healer dies due to _____? People aren't being healed/dispelled, which leads to group members being killed.

A reductionist illustration I know, but I feel like its simplicity makes it clear that everybody matters, and matters even more with a smaller raid and/or more difficult content. A large percentage of the population plays for one "team" and for whatever reason feels like people on the other "teams" have it so faceroll easy.

I see the LFR being raised as the standard of measurement of who has it easy and who has it hard: "Oh, the tanks died and this _____ was able to hold the boss for X amount of time. Tanking must be easy." The point of the LFR is that the whole group isn't punished for the mistakes of a few people. It would be wildly unfair for LFR to be forgiving on DPSers, where you can have several of them dead and still win the fight, but kill everyone if one of the Tanks makes a mistake. LFR is designed not only as way to allow for everyone to see the content and get some nice gear, but also as an introduction of sorts to each fight for those of us who have our sights trained on moving up to Normal and Heroic Raiding to learn the basic mechanics, thereby making it more manageable to juggle new ones/manage the now more punishing old ones.
Edited by Threetrees on 5/24/2013 9:30 AM PDT
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