LF Feedback – Pet Abilities Adjustments

Community Manager
We’re looking to make further Pet Battles adjustments in a future patch (potentially 5.4), and your valuable feedback is needed!

Currently, in an Elemental vs. Mechanical matchup, Elementals gain both an attack bonus versus Mechanicals as well as a defensive bonus against Mechanical abilities. In order to help even the playing field a bit, we were mulling over some potential changes to damage types, and the families they would be weak against.

Here are some initial ideas that are being kicked around:

  • Mechanical abilities would deal less damage versus Critter (instead of Elemental)
  • Elemental abilities would deal less damage versus Dragonkin (instead of Critter)
  • Flying abilities would deal less damage versus Elemental (instead of Dragonkin)

  • And here is a second set of ideas we’re considering:

  • Undead abilities would deal less damage versus Elemental (instead of Aquatic)
  • Mechanical abilities would deal less damage versus Aquatic (instead of Elemental)

  • Your thoughts on these potential changes would be really helpful, so please take a moment to reply below and let us know what you think.
    Reply Quote
    90 Pandaren Hunter
    16735
    I like both sets of Super-effectiveness changes propoed. Especially Flying vs Dragon being changed! Really helps my team out.

    Only concern is that now Mechanicals will be stronger than they are in their current state.
    Reply Quote
    90 Worgen Mage
    20350
    Only concern is that now Mechanicals will be stronger than they are in their current state.
    Reply Quote
    90 Night Elf Druid
    10355
    Sorry if this isn't exactly on topic, but one thing that concerns me is that if there are changes made to which families are strong/weak against other families, will there be changes or new pets implemented to fill the "effective counter" gaps?

    Currently there are at least one or two pets that are "counter pets" to each family. A Dragonkin with magical attacks if you're up against a Flying type, a Humanoid that has beast attacks for Critters, etc. They aren't automatic "win" pets, nor are they outstandingly overpowered/strong. It's just fun and it's something players of all proficiency levels can grasp onto.

    I would hope that this is kept in mind if any changes to strong/weak attacks are made. Hopefully new pets that fit the new and updated "counter pet" roles will be implemented at the same time these changes are made.
    Reply Quote
    90 Pandaren Shaman
    14660
    I'd certainly support this. I found myself severely under utilizing Mechanical pets, at least in PVE, due to how extraordinarily weak they were in the Elemental-ridden landscape.

    I don't really have any opinion on which gaps to put them in, but there are counters for almost every pet combination. I built a spreadsheet (that hasn't been updated for 5.2) that had pretty much everything in it and there are minimal gaps: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ak-IEbD_NGcmdFVSYlpxZ0VmWWdNdWgyVnAtLXA4Q1E&gid=3

    The second tab has it, and you can see the gaps via the "blackened" cells. The "grey" are the expected strength/weakness comps. Again, it hasn't been updated for the 5.2 pets and changes, but it might be something to consider when creating new hybridized ability pets if you want to create counters.
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Death Knight
    11190
    I think the aqua, undead, mech, ele route is the way to go, less changes and makes more sense. it would be nice if pvp pet battles could be viewed by anyone and/or played from the phone app
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    18455
    Well, currently offensive counters are done in a loop like so (+1 up from the current position is what it beats):
    Critter
    Beast
    Mechanical
    Elemental
    Aquatic
    Flying
    Magic
    Dragon
    Humanoid
    Undead

    Defensive counters:
    Critter
    Elemental
    Mechanical
    Magic
    Aquatic
    Undead
    Dragon
    Flying
    Beast
    Humanoid

    Defensive counters in comparison to offensive counters:
    Critter weak against Humanoid. (+2 in list)
    Beast weak against Flying. (-4 in list)
    Mechanical weak against Elemental. (-1 in list)
    Elemental weak against Critter. (+3 in list)
    Aquatic weak against Magic. (-2 in list)
    Flying weak against Dragon. (-2 in list)
    Magic weak against Mechanical. (+4 in list)
    Dragon weak against Undead. (-2 in list)
    Humanoid weak against Beast. (-3 in list)
    Undead weak against Aquatic. (+/-5 in list)

    So the problem is that you don't have a system for defensive counters that ties into the same one as the one for offensive counters. It just feels pretty arbitrary because of that.
    Edited by Simca on 5/20/2013 9:55 PM PDT
    Reply Quote
    90 Goblin Hunter
    7715
    Flying abilities would deal less damage versus Elemental (instead of Dragonkin)


    Crows / Ravens, arguably the most popular Flying type, would be doubly countered by Elementals if this went through. Not really a complaint, just an observation.

    Also, like someone else said, there is a concern that Mechanical types would be a lot stronger if the first set of changes went through, but I'm okay w/ that. Currently, Mechanical encompasses a lot of the "cooler" pets, but are simply not feasible to use (w/ a few exceptions, of course) in the PvP metagame thanks to the overabundance of Elemental abilities.

    Interesting adjustments, all in all. I'm honestly leaning more toward the 2nd set of changes, personally, as it would be much less of a "shake up" in the metagame, but that may be a purely biased opinion as I'm already used to what's been the "norm".

    The first set of changes, however, would likely make far more currently unused battle pets more viable as far as PvP goes. I believe that could be pretty good for the game.
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    18455
    The ideal way to fix it is to make it an actual system rather than hodgepodge. The best two ways are basing it on -2 or +3. With -2, you have to change less (7 out of the 10). With +3, you have to change more (all except one), but it is more diverse because -2 actually just creates two loops that never interact.

    -2:
    Critter weak against Mechanical.
    Beast weak against Elemental.
    Mechanical weak against Aquatic.
    Elemental weak against Flying.
    Aquatic weak against Magic.
    Flying weak against Dragon.
    Magic weak against Humanoid.
    Dragon weak against Undead.
    Humanoid weak against Critter.
    Undead weak against Beast.

    +3:
    Critter weak against Dragon.
    Beast weak against Humanoid.
    Mechanical weak against Undead.
    Elemental weak against Critter.
    Aquatic weak against Beast.
    Flying weak against Mechanical.
    Magic weak against Elemental.
    Dragon weak against Aquatic.
    Humanoid weak against Flying.
    Undead weak against Magic.

    Unfortunately, my suggestion results in a much larger series of changes than the ones you're proposing, but it also makes far more sense to have a structure for the system behind defensive counters.
    Edited by Simca on 5/20/2013 4:24 PM PDT
    Reply Quote
    90 Draenei Priest
    19025
    im gonna agree with Illness, the 2nd set seems best, mainly because its just fewer changes
    Reply Quote
    90 Tauren Shaman
    18780


  • Undead abilities would deal less damage versus Elemental (instead of Aquatic)


  • I like the sound of this, especially with the proposed change to Aquatic family bonus. There's a lot of dots in the undead tree, and that seems like double bad for undeads. At least with this change the 50% reduction to dots wouldn't be stacked on top of the abilities doing less damage.
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    18455
    If you aren't willing to completely overhaul the defensive counter system, then I prefer the second set of changes.

    Making Undead weak against Elemental is a good way to nerf Undead pets without messing with the passive and makes Mechanicals more viable.
    Reply Quote
    90 Tauren Druid
    15690
    We’re looking to make further Pet Battles adjustments in a future patch (potentially 5.4), and your valuable feedback is needed!

    Currently, in an Elemental vs. Mechanical matchup, Elementals gain both an attack bonus versus Mechanicals as well as a defensive bonus against Mechanical abilities. In order to help even the playing field a bit, we were mulling over some potential changes to damage types, and the families they would be weak against.

    Here are some initial ideas that are being kicked around:

  • Mechanical abilities would deal less damage versus Critter (instead of Elemental)
  • Elemental abilities would deal less damage versus Dragonkin (instead of Critter)
  • Flying abilities would deal less damage versus Elemental (instead of Dragonkin)

  • And here is a second set of ideas we’re considering:

  • Undead abilities would deal less damage versus Elemental (instead of Aquatic)
  • Mechanical abilities would deal less damage versus Aquatic (instead of Elemental)

  • Your thoughts on these potential changes would be really helpful, so please take a moment to reply below and let us know what you think.


    Currently, all but 1 pet type has a "hard counter pet", that is, a pet with a type and moveset that can perfectly counter it (They deal extra damage to that specific pet family, and take less damage from that pet family's movesets.). That pet type is Dragonkin.

    With the first set of changes, it would cause Elementals to also have no "hard counter" pet types. All Dragonkins would take 33% less damage from Elemental pets. Elemental pets take 50% more damage from Water type moves. NO Dragon's have a water type move, meaning that Elemental type pets would deal 50% more damage to Mechanical types, deal 33% less damage to Dragonkin types, take 50% more damage from Aquatic type moves, and take 33% less damage from Flying type moves. This would also remove Critters, specifically ANY kind of Snail from being the current hard counter against most elementals- since Elementals also tend to have some sort of CC move (A quick look showed that about 62% by my reckoning of Elementals have either a stun, or a root spell). Granted, with the Resilience change, this was made moot, but it was still nice to be able to have a easier time on the Elemental type pet trainers with a Snail.

    The changes to Flying type pets moveset, 33% less damage to Elemental instead of Dragonkin, would move the Flying-type Hard Counter pet to Elemental- specifical, the Geode's of the Elemental, such as the Elementium Geode, Crimson Geode, Ashtone Core, and a few others. It would also cause the Kirin Tor Familiar to wreck most flying types, and the Dark Pheonix to become a good anti-flyer.

    The change to Mechanical type movesets would still allow Mechanical types to be hard-countered, as there are a few Critter types with Elemental moves.

    As for the second change... Mechanical Types would be hard countered instead by the 2 penguin pets, Mr. Chilly and Pengu, as well as the rareish Spawn of Gnathus, and Undead... could be hard countered by the Core Hound Pup, as well as the Jade Tentacle.

    In terms of changes, I would GREATLY prefer the second change to the first, as it A) limits the number of hard counters to a few pets, that are both easily obtained but at the same time not capturable in the wild, and it prevents any NEW pet-type from becoming un-hard counterable. As an extra change, PLEASE add in an Undead pet type with a Humanoid type damage move, so that Dragonkin pet types are hard-counterable as well, instead of being the only one that isnt. (Beasts are also ALMOST in the un-hard-counterable spot, given that the only hard counter they have is the Dragon Kite, which is a very rare TCG item, and thus few pet-battlers have one. Make the Balloons a flying type pet with a mechanical move please?)
    Reply Quote
    90 Draenei Monk
    8030
    Currently there are at least one or two pets that are "counter pets" to each family. They aren't automatic "win" pets, nor are they outstandingly overpowered/strong.

    I would hope that this is kept in mind if any changes to strong/weak attacks are made.


    Pretty much this. Discovering the "double counter" to a given pet (or tamer's pets) is a really fun part of fiddling with Pet Battles.

    Edit: I also prefer the second option, for the reasons stated above: Far less shakeup in the entire metagame.
    Edited by Thera on 5/20/2013 5:20 PM PDT
    Reply Quote
    90 Orc Death Knight
    11585
    I feel like the second one not only makes more thematic sense but doesnt shake things up as much as compared to the first.
    Reply Quote
    90 Draenei Mage
    9690
    Gonna make a mess of my pet teams, but it is the right thing to do, I will adapt.
    Reply Quote
    I like the second option. Undead are a very strong family right now, and Elementals are a common family type. The slight nerf would be welcome.

    Likewise, Aquatic are pretty rare and should be a slight buff to Mechanical.

    EDIT: I definitely agree that Mechanical should not be doubly weak against Elemental. I heartily endorse any change that adjusts that.
    Edited by Zulazilu on 5/20/2013 9:49 PM PDT
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    18455
    Defensive counters now (one full loop):
    • Critter
    • Elemental
    • Mechanical
    • Magic
    • Aquatic
    • Undead
    • Dragon
    • Flying
    • Beast
    • Humanoid

    Defensive counters if the second changes go through (split into two sections):
    • Critter
    • Elemental
    • Undead
    • Dragon
    • Flying
    • Beast
    • Humanoid

    • Mechanical
    • Magic
    • Aquatic

    Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but it ends up being a little bit odd to have Mechanical > Magic > Aquatic > Mechanical not ever being part of the rest of the defensive counter list.
    Edited by Simca on 5/20/2013 10:00 PM PDT
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Priest
    BnB
    14295
    Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but it ends up being a little bit odd to have Mechanical > Magic > Aquatic > Mechanical not ever being part of the rest of the defensive counter list.


    I seriously don't get the point of the changes. The changes proposed or why it was even thought of. Anyone have any insight into this?
    Reply Quote

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