LF Feedback – Pet Abilities Adjustments

90 Night Elf Monk
19295
First time seeing this thread, so I am a little late. But whatever changes you make to strength and weaknesses versus types, just make them logical.

It is logical that beast types do extra damage versus critters. It makes sense to me that undead would do extra damage to humans, and elementals are weak to aquatic (well except the water elemental pet).

I can see why you made mechanicals weak versus elemental, probably had electricity and lightening in mind, but I always felt it should have been undead that were weak to elemental and that dragons should be strong versus elemental.

Like I said, whatever changes you do make, I would prefer a logical strong/weak system that makes sense rather than an arbitrary switch for balance sake.
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91647416580:
Thank you to everyone who has shared their feedback with us so far, we appreciate it. Based on some of the comments we’ve received, here is an updated list of potential changes we’re hoping to include in Patch 5.4:

  • The Magic passive now caps damage taken at 35% of maximum health, buffed from 40%.
  • The Dragonkin passive effect now activates when the enemy is taken below 50% health, up from 25%.
  • The Aquatic passive now reduces DOT damage by 50%, up from 25%.
  • The Elemental passive effect now only affect negative, direct effects of weather (e.g. the accuracy reduction of Sandstorm won’t be applied, but the damage reduction will).
  • The Critter passive now makes critters completely immune to roots, stuns, and sleeps.

  • Keep that feedback rollin’ in!


    grilledcheez approves of these changes, though he welcomes more pets to be obtained.
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    90 Human Hunter
    12535
    ...Aren't Dragons already insanely strong, and now you're going to make them even stronger?
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    MVP
    90 Worgen Warlock
    10465
    I'm glad you're keeping the elemental passive and rather fixing the issues with it. That should make a lot of pets, including the upcoming blossoming ancient. more appealing.
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    90 Human Mage
    10210
    I think the above mentioned passive changes are a move in the right direction. A couple other things I would like to see is adjusting certain abilities that seem to be functioning little better than intended.

    For example a pet with a high speed that uses the ability Dodge will get to avoid damage from 2 attacks even though the tool tip says lasts the round. Whereas a similar ability like Cocoon strike only blocks one attack and it does not matter which pet goes first.

    The only other adjustment I can think of off the top of my head would be to adjust weather related attacks. Sandstorm feels a little strong sometimes compared to the other elements especially when paired with healing of any type.

    Looking forward to the new implementations I'm closing in on 1000 victories. Darn shame it wasn't keeping count until recently.
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    90 Draenei Shaman
    10820
    91647416580:
    Thank you to everyone who has shared their feedback with us so far, we appreciate it. Based on some of the comments we’ve received, here is an updated list of potential changes we’re hoping to include in Patch 5.4:

  • The Magic passive now caps damage taken at 35% of maximum health, buffed from 40%.
  • The Dragonkin passive effect now activates when the enemy is taken below 50% health, up from 25%.
  • The Aquatic passive now reduces DOT damage by 50%, up from 25%.
  • The Elemental passive effect now only affect negative, direct effects of weather (e.g. the accuracy reduction of Sandstorm won’t be applied, but the damage reduction will).
  • The Critter passive now makes critters completely immune to roots, stuns, and sleeps.

  • Keep that feedback rollin’ in!


    I like the feel of these changes. I'd have to try out the dragonkin change in-game to know if that's too strong or not. I'd say that means you should put up the 5.4 PTR, but I'm still busy with 5.3 stuff on live =P
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    90 Orc Hunter
    14455
    What you should do is try to get different types into the pet daily list. There are more beasts, critters, and aquatics than I know what to do with, and what's left is usually flying or dragon. Only a handful of elementals and magic, no humanoids, one mechanical that I can think of, and like 2? undead, and they're on the same trainer. And these are just the dailies that reward bags =\

    Varying the types of pets we fight is more interesting, because as it is now, you can use the same 5 pets in rotation for every battle (get a flying/beast/dragon/mecha/human and use the proper 3). Even with the proposed changes, it's not like that'll offer a wider range of pets to use. Just 5 different ones.
    Edited by Cozzene on 5/29/2013 11:45 AM PDT
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    90 Goblin Shaman
    15185
    Here are some initial ideas that are being kicked around:
    •Mechanical abilities would deal less damage versus Critter (instead of Elemental)
    •Elemental abilities would deal less damage versus Dragonkin (instead of Critter)
    •Flying abilities would deal less damage versus Elemental (instead of Dragonkin)
    And here is a second set of ideas we’re considering:
    •Undead abilities would deal less damage versus Elemental (instead of Aquatic)
    •Mechanical abilities would deal less damage versus Aquatic (instead of Elemental)

    There's so many pets and movesets that it's hard to guess the actual impact. I am overall fond of these changes for the most part...

    Only concern is that now Mechanicals will be stronger than they are in their current state.

    They're the only type completely dead against another type, being Elementals. The Rock Paper Scissors chain really did need some adjustment, either making all matchups like this, or varying the matchups. I find Mechanicals largely unplayable for this reason, since Elemental being more useful against Darkness/Scorched Earth effects generally makes Elemental the better metagame choice.

    Thank you to everyone who has shared their feedback with us so far, we appreciate it. Based on some of the comments we’ve received, here is an updated list of potential changes we’re hoping to include in Patch 5.4:
    •The Magic passive now caps damage taken at 35% of maximum health, buffed from 40%.
    •The Dragonkin passive effect now activates when the enemy is taken below 50% health, up from 25%.
    •The Aquatic passive now reduces DOT damage by 50%, up from 25%.
    •The Elemental passive effect now only affect negative, direct effects of weather (e.g. the accuracy reduction of Sandstorm won’t be applied, but the damage reduction will).
    •The Critter passive now makes critters completely immune to roots, stuns, and sleeps.

    The issues I see:
    - Dragonkin racial at 50% bonus triggering at 50% seems potentially too powerful. 25%-35% seems appropriate.
    - Elemental racial change is great for the movesets where many Elementals have beneficial weather they can use but not benefit from... but it seems like this will result in Sandstorm being extremely dominant completely shutting down every DOT and multi-hit pet in the game.

    The only reason Sandstorm doesn't take off right now is because Anubisath is the only particularly effective user of it. (Qiraji Guardling isn't out yet, and it's not generally preferred on Enchanted Broom.) With a big influx of viable Sandstorm users who ALSO don't even eat the 10% accuracy drop, that presents a huge metagame shift, a very negative metagame shift.

    If the Elemental change is to go live in this incarnation, I'd say its time to revist the power level of Sandstorm. Perhaps reduce the damage reduction value by ~1/2? I know I'd basically have to deem about half the game's pets unplayable just on the off-chance of Sandstorm. Right now, I don't, because it's only Anubisath really.

    I wouldn't mind seeing the accuracy drop taken off Sandstorm and Darkness both, the extra RNG is particularly frustrating. While flavorful, it detracts from the fun of the game to have your 100% accurate attack drop to 90% and then miss 3 times in a row... few things are more frustrating than losing to RNG when you'd explicitly chosen a weaker move for its reliable output.

    I'm all on-board for making Elementals actually benefit from the positive weather effects many of them use, but I don't want to see the metagame get tanked by Sandstorm.
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    90 Draenei Shaman
    10820
    91640517564:
    I wouldn't mind seeing the accuracy drop taken off Sandstorm and Darkness both, the extra RNG is particularly frustrating. While flavorful, it detracts from the fun of the game to have your 100% accurate attack drop to 90% and then miss 3 times in a row... few things are more frustrating than losing to RNG when you'd explicitly chosen a weaker move for its reliable output.

    I'm all on-board for making Elementals actually benefit from the positive weather effects many of them use, but I don't want to see the metagame get tanked by Sandstorm.


    I don't want to start an argument about this, but I do want to say I would rank flavor as a higher priority than balance or protecting any iteration of the metagame.

    I absolutely know others feel the opposite, and am just mentioning this to ensure Blizzard knows at least one person out here would prefer not to lose theme and flavor to the normal e-sports arms race of balancing around a constantly changing metagame.
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    90 Goblin Shaman
    15185
    On a semi-related feedback note, I think it would be great if several existing pets had their stat breeds/movesets revisited. There's a LOT of pets (Spiders, Frogs, Squirrels, Beetles/Roaches in particular) who all have the exact same moves in the exact same slots and the exact same breeds, dozens in fact. Wouldn't mind seeing a little programmer love changing up a few move positions or breeds.

    Semi-related, several event pets (or other oddly acquired pets) seem to have just been lazily given the exact same 1481/276/276 breed. It's kind of annoying, and really hinders any unique usability of these pets since that is one of the single worst breed possibilities in the game with a terrible stat total. For example, all Winter Veil pets, Sea Pony, and even Sumprush Rodent (has 2 breeds, with the other being an even worse 273/273) have only 1 mediocre breed as an option.

    91646316931:
    I don't want to start an argument about this, but I do want to say I would rank flavor as a higher priority than balance or protecting any iteration of the metagame.

    I gotta point out battle pets themselves defy flavor of basically anything.

    Why should Scooter the Snail be able to take out an incarnation of the Firelord Ragnaros... even a small version? Why should Lil'Deathwing struggle against an Infected Squirrel? Etc.

    In fact, flavor is already defied in that the best moves to inflict damage on Mechanicals... are often poisons dealing Elemental damage. No one I've ever seen raises a fuss over the fact that mechanical pets suffer extensively from being poisoned. ;p

    Why do humanoids even heal from doing damage on a given turn? Are they supposed to be using bandages in between turns, but only if they dealt damage, or are humanoids all vampires now?

    Flavor is both present and ignored on a widescale basis. I like flavor, even if Mr Wiggles' flavor text description is horrifyingly awful (seriously, read it), especially for a Children's Day reward... but I don't believe flavor is a justification for bad design. ;p
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    90 Human Paladin
    17435
    I'm glad elementals are keeping their weather racial. Would have been weird if they changed it to the proposed racial which reduces dmg taken by 50% when entering the battle.
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    90 Blood Elf Priest
    9410
    I think if you do this change to Elemental, Sandstorm will take off excessively well, and it's never been a terribly fun team to play with or against. Cutting the damage reduction in from 5 base to 3 base would keep multi-hit pets from getting completely boned by Elemental/Sandstorm teams. Right now a normal basic attack is 20 base damage, Flurry averages 25 over 2.5 hits, but in Sandstorm, normal goes down to 15 assuming equal power, but Flurry drops to 12.5. I think Flurry also gets taxed by hitrate penalties as if it had 3 hits rather than 2.5. Watching Flurry and Tail Sweep turn into pure crap against a significant portion of the metagame would not be fun.
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    90 Human Warlock
    16630
    91640418601:
    I think if you do this change to Elemental, Sandstorm will take off excessively well, and it's never been a terribly fun team to play with or against. Cutting the damage reduction in from 5 base to 3 base would keep multi-hit pets from getting completely boned by Elemental/Sandstorm teams. Right now a normal basic attack is 20 base damage, Flurry averages 25 over 2.5 hits, but in Sandstorm, normal goes down to 15 assuming equal power, but Flurry drops to 12.5. I think Flurry also gets taxed by hitrate penalties as if it had 3 hits rather than 2.5. Watching Flurry and Tail Sweep turn into pure crap against a significant portion of the metagame would not be fun.


    Pretty much this. Sandstorm is already a pain and you get it all the time in pvp matches. If the change went live i can see idol sandling combos non stop.
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    90 Worgen Hunter
    8965
    91647416580:
    Thank you to everyone who has shared their feedback with us so far, we appreciate it. Based on some of the comments we’ve received, here is an updated list of potential changes we’re hoping to include in Patch 5.4:

  • The Magic passive now caps damage taken at 35% of maximum health, buffed from 40%.
  • The Dragonkin passive effect now activates when the enemy is taken below 50% health, up from 25%.
  • The Aquatic passive now reduces DOT damage by 50%, up from 25%.
  • The Elemental passive effect now only affect negative, direct effects of weather (e.g. the accuracy reduction of Sandstorm won’t be applied, but the damage reduction will).
  • The Critter passive now makes critters completely immune to roots, stuns, and sleeps.

  • Keep that feedback rollin’ in!


    Great job! I was really worried that the elemental changes were really gonna screw things up, but this seems to be a perfect solution. Elementals get to keep their flavor, but still get fixed.

    Haven't given it too much thought, but the Dragonkin buff seems a bit excessive. I actually think it's fine the way it is, but I think I'm the minority. What sounds better to me is their bonus activating after a kill rather than 50%. If it does activate after dropping opponents before 50% would it still just last a turn? Again, just my initial reaction, I'll give it some more thought.

    Everything else is awesome.

    Edit: Upon reading some other player's responses I have to agree that something needs to be changed with sandstorm. It just completely shuts down too many teams. I'm not advocating the removal of sandstorm, just a tweaking. Like others have mentioned make it do less of a damage reduction.
    Edited by Discodoggy on 5/29/2013 3:48 PM PDT
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    90 Night Elf Druid
    5385
    91640517564:
    Elemental racial change is great for the movesets where many Elementals have beneficial weather they can use but not benefit from... but it seems like this will result in Sandstorm being extremely dominant completely shutting down every DOT and multi-hit pet in the game.


    Isn't that its job? Weather can be countered by other weather. It would also be cool if DoTs applied by an elemental weren't reduced by sandstorm (but were still reduced by shell shield and other non-weather reductions) -- I'm not sure from what Mumper said if that's how they intend it to work or not. There's also corrosion and the mangle/black claw family to counter sandstorm.

    DoTs are quite strong if they aren't being countered (even without something like corrosion, lightning storm, or the black claw/hunting party combo), I don't see why they shouldn't have a viable counter.

    91640517564:
    Qiraji Guardling isn't out yet


    It will almost certainly be out before these changes go live, in any case.
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    2 Troll Hunter
    0
    That there's been one blue post on the forums over the last 5 days, and that the one post is about pet battles, is incredibly disheartening.
    Edited by Bankaltlollo on 5/29/2013 4:10 PM PDT
    Reply Quote
    90 Orc Hunter
    8690
    91644516595:
    91647416580:
    Thank you to everyone who has shared their feedback with us so far, we appreciate it. Based on some of the comments we’ve received, here is an updated list of potential changes we’re hoping to include in Patch 5.4:

  • The Magic passive now caps damage taken at 35% of maximum health, buffed from 40%.
  • The Dragonkin passive effect now activates when the enemy is taken below 50% health, up from 25%.
  • The Aquatic passive now reduces DOT damage by 50%, up from 25%.
  • The Elemental passive effect now only affect negative, direct effects of weather (e.g. the accuracy reduction of Sandstorm won’t be applied, but the damage reduction will).
  • The Critter passive now makes critters completely immune to roots, stuns, and sleeps.

  • Keep that feedback rollin’ in!


    Some decent stuff there.


    That's all you can say. Rofl.
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    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    18370
    91647517792:
    It will almost certainly be out before these changes go live, in any case.


    From my testing on the PTR, the Qiraji Guardling is going to cause a new host of qq threads about Sandstorm.

    It has really great breed possibilities - 330/300 and 300/330 among others.
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    90 Worgen Hunter
    8965
    91640518286:
    That there's been one blue post on the forums over the last 5 days, and that the one post is about pet battles, is incredibly disheartening.


    (looks at pathetic 492 ilvl of main <------) Oh yeah, there's other things besides pet battling I could be doing in game, almost forgot.

    91643517603:
    91647517792:
    It will almost certainly be out before these changes go live, in any case.


    From my testing on the PTR, the Qiraji Guardling is going to cause a new host of qq threads about Sandstorm.

    It has really great breed possibilities - 330/300 and 300/330 among others.


    Count me in!
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    90 Night Elf Druid
    20035
    I feel like the second set of possibilities involves less overall changes, yet makes more logical sense.

    It makes sense that mechanical does less damage against aquatic (as if a knife could ever do damage to water), while doing less damage against critters is less sensible.

    As for other overall feedback, I feel like CC is too strong in pet battles. The number of Kun-Lai Runts I see in pet battles is indicative of this. I feel like CC should not have the ability to do massive amounts of damage while also stunning a pet; if you're going to make your opponent miss a turn, you should pay the price by doing less damage with that ability, not more damage.
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