Considering Energy Regen Mechanics...

Why isn't "Venemous Wounds" part of Subtlety and "Energetic Recovery" part of Assassination spec? Granted how the specialties actually work, it would make more sense that way just from my own experiences as a rogue.

Assassination keeps Slice and Dice up via Envenom (thanks to Cut to the Chase) and Subtlety will ALWAYS have some bleed effect on for increased damage, especially considering one of the combo builders IS a bleeder. It seems like that would be the best energy regeneration outfit for each spec.

The two are just misplaced and need a swap in my opinion.
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91 Undead Rogue
8620
Uhhhh.... because Assassination is the poison spec and Venomous Wounds scales with their mastery.

Also Energetic recovery used to be on recuperate which made a lot of sense with Sub, SnD is a much better place to have it but yeah.

I understand what you're saying, that they'd be more convenient switched. But they definitely should be where they are. Venomous Wounds scales with Mut mastery and is poison, and SnD's atk spd scales with Sub's mastery.
Edited by Kiljagen on 5/10/2013 8:32 PM PDT
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By that reasoning, you're saying either energy regen is reliant on Mastery. Subtlety spec rogues don't really stack for Mastery last I checked, and even with Assassination getting more bang for its poisons through Mastery, it'd be a neck and neck fight with Critical Rating given Seal Fate.

I just don't see the logic behind that, other than "We're going against what's normally kept up to make the class more challenging." And to that end, why would anyone purposefully stagnate an attack-fueling resource as a means to make a class more challenging? Perhaps to bottleneck things, I guess...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it feels like completely random inserts when everything else has been gearing towards the other combo-point spender ability.
Edited by Fixitt on 5/11/2013 8:30 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
17750
05/11/2013 08:14 AMPosted by Fixitt
I just don't see the logic behind that, other than "We're going against what's normally kept up to make the class more challenging."
What are you talking about, going against what's normally kept up? Sub would keep SnD up no matter what anyways, it's essentially the biggest dps contributing ability of all 3 specs. And are you really saying that mut having to keep up rupture is making the spec challenging? Without rupture all you'd do is spam mutilate, hit dispatch when it's available and envenom at 5 cps, oh and it'd do less dps than it does now since it would no longer get the VW damage.

As to why would they "stagnate" an attack-fueling resource....because it's a resource. It's NOT supposed to be infinite, you're supposed to care about it, how you spend it, and how you gain it.

Also, he never said anything about either spec's energy being reliant on mastery, because mastery has zero impact on the energy regen of VW or ER. He said that those abilities have synergy with the spec's masteries. Mut's mastery increasing the damage of VW, and Sub's mastery increasing the potency of SnD, neither impacts how much or how often they get energy.
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05/11/2013 09:01 AMPosted by Pancakê
What are you talking about, going against what's normally kept up?


Simply put, how the specialties are designed. Subtlety has some focus on various bleed effects (Sanguinary Vein, Hemorrhage, and to a degree, Find Weakness) and Assassination felt more about the strikes you did outright, each one tacking on more damage with poison. With how Slice and Dice is kept up by Envenom through Cut to the Chase and Subtlety would always have up Rupture, it just felt like if the two swapped places, energy regeneration would flow into the natural rotation instead of being something out on a limb. As it stands, Venemous Wounds is the only reason an Assassination Rogue would keep up Rupture on a Target as much as Energetic Recovery being the only reason a Subtlety Rogue keeps up Slice and Dice. Were the two swapped, they'd simply be just extra damage and not key to staying on top of situations.

I'll admit right now that the current system is fine, and I've no qualms about it save how random Venemous Wounds felt in Assassination and Energetic Recovery felt being in Subtlety.

05/11/2013 09:01 AMPosted by Pancakê
As to why would they "stagnate" an attack-fueling resource....because it's a resource. It's NOT supposed to be infinite, you're supposed to care about it, how you spend it, and how you gain it.


While I agree with this statement, there has been some issues regarding energy regen and my thoughts on the matter just felt like it would be more 'fluid'. There's plenty of avenues for spending... and gaining it is too little. To the point of being "Energy starved".

05/11/2013 09:01 AMPosted by Pancakê
Also, he never said anything about either spec's energy being reliant on mastery, because mastery has zero impact on the energy regen of VW or ER. He said that those abilities have synergy with the spec's masteries.


It's the way he worded it. Though to that end, I don't see how the effectiveness of Slice and Dice has a point in Subtlety at all when the energy regeneration is flatrate. So you get in a few extra white-damage swings? What would the point be unless you had Rupture up? (Though to that end, why isn't Hemorrhage counted for Sanguinary Vein anyway?)
Edited by Fixitt on 5/12/2013 8:54 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Rogue
19825
Energetic Recovery being the only reason a Subtlety Rogue keeps up Slice and Dice


And here I thought I kept it up for the attack speed bonus which is further increased from my mastery
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
Venomous Wounds gives assassination a reason to use rupture. By itself, rupture isn't appealing enough to be prioritized with any urgency. VW is more than energy regen, which is why it's so well suited for the assassination spec. Sub wouldn't benefit much from poison damage.

Also, Energetic Recovery is the way it is now because the energy regen was shifted from recuperate into Slice n Dice so recuperate wouldn't need to be kept up for DPS.

Your idea isn't wrong or bad, but there are reasons things are the way they are.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
19825
Venomous Wounds gives assassination a reason to use rupture. By itself, rupture isn't appealing enough to be prioritized with any urgency. VW is more than energy regen, which is why it's so well suited for the assassination spec. Sub wouldn't benefit much from poison damage.

Also, Energetic Recovery is the way it is now because the energy regen was shifted from recuperate into Slice n Dice so recuperate wouldn't need to be kept up for DPS.

Your idea isn't wrong or bad, but there are reasons things are the way they are.


Yep... Lvl 1 ghost rogue pretty much hammered the nail home on this one.
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Fair enough. /thread
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100 Night Elf Monk
16295
Yep... Lvl 1 ghost rogue pretty much hammered the nail home on this one.


ha. that's not just a random lvl 1 rogue, but ok.

thematically, subtlety and assassination are pretty much swapped though, so I understand your confusion, OP.
Edited by Sichel on 5/12/2013 3:50 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Rogue
19825
05/12/2013 03:49 PMPosted by Sichel
Yep... Lvl 1 ghost rogue pretty much hammered the nail home on this one.


ha. that's not just a random lvl 1 rogue, but ok.

thematically, subtlety and assassination are pretty much swapped though, so I understand your confusion, OP.


You would think subtlety to be more trickster-ish... and assassination to be the "I come out of stealth to kill you in a few hits then run like hell."

True facts... there's nothing subtle about subtlety.
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90 Human Rogue
17275
Man most of you guys are thick.

The poison spec's Energy mechanic is based off keeping up a Bleed.

Sub is the Bleed spec.

That's all he's saying. He's just pointing out the irony.

05/12/2013 02:41 PMPosted by Cloaked
VW is more than energy regen, which is why it's so well suited for the assassination spec.


You're looking at it backwards.

Blizz wanted to force Rupture (a Bleed) into Assassination's rotation. Prior to Cata only Combat used Rupture (and even then ArP builds didnt use it at all). Multilate only used Rupture if there was no one else in the raid that could Bleed and it wasn't full uptime either, it was just to pop Hunger for Blood.

They also wanted to nerf -- Focused Attacks -- (this ability was Mutilate's version of Combat Potency. It gave back 2 Energy every time we crit. It scaled way, way too well with Haste and made double H Lungbreakers 1.4 speed Daggers BIS. At endgame, spamming FoK on multiple mobs was a DPS increase to single target as well, simply to burn off excess energy).

So they concocted VW to accomplish both goals.

It doesn't really fit in thematically with the poison build. It could just as easily have been a "bleed" splurt of dmg as a poison one. They could have come up with some other poison based mechanic entirely for Mutilate.

But instead they hamfisted Rupture into our spec.

Irony of today, is that Combat doesn't even use Rupture anymore and the other two specs are stuck with it.
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62 Pandaren Rogue
5385
The poison spec's Energy mechanic is based off keeping up a Bleed.


...on a poisoned target. If you actually gave it to sub, they'd have more RNG in whether or not they had managed to proc a poison yet, since they don't have the increased application chance. *And* the damage wouldn't benefit from mastery.

I mean, I suppose they could make it based on hitting a poisoned target or something, but it seems like they want Rupture to be part of Assassination, probably for rampup reasons.

They probably should have changed ER's name when they unlinked it from Recuperate, though. The change itself seems reasonable enough (and necessary, with the removal of the rupture refresh passive, I forget the name), but wtf does it have to do with recovery anymore?
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100 Night Elf Monk
16295
Blizz wanted to force Rupture (a Bleed) into Assassination's rotation. Prior to Cata only Combat used Rupture (and even then ArP builds didnt use it at all). Multilate only used Rupture if there was no one else in the raid that could Bleed and it wasn't full uptime either, it was just to pop Hunger for Blood.


Rupture was a core rotational skill for mut back in BC. I dunno what I might have missed in wrath but it seemed like it basically stayed the same but stacked haste. Rupture become more mandatory in pvp when blizz made it a regen mechanic, however, but mut's been using rupture for forever. old rotation was mut > snd > mut > rupture rinse and repeat, eviscerate when possible and envenom only if the conditions were highly favorable (I remember getting 4k envenom crits by watching for and stealing stormstrike from shamans. good times)

It doesn't really fit in thematically with the poison build. It could just as easily have been a "bleed" splurt of dmg as a poison one. They could have come up with some other poison based mechanic entirely for Mutilate.


I disagree - a bleed would allow poisons to seep much more easily into a person's wounds, making them much deadlier and faster at killing the target (hence proccing bonus poison damage) It makes perfect thematic sense and much more sense in assassination than subtlety given how they currently function.

Irony of today, is that Combat doesn't even use Rupture anymore and the other two specs are stuck with it.


not really stuck...rupture is one of the finishers I like the idea of (moreso in assassination because it hits hard via venemous wounds) but I wish it would hit a lot harder for subtlety.

but wtf does it have to do with recovery anymore?


recovering energy. there are probably more intuitive names, however.
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