Does ret AOE ever get better?

90 Human Paladin
10645
I'm not trying to be flippant. My single-target DPS as ret shows up pretty well against other classes, but my AOE damage is horrendous. What's more, it just feels clunky. Divine storm costs too much holy power and feels like I'm waving a feather in a circle; exorcism (glyphed) is solid when it's up, but tends to be spiky.

Obviously, I'd never expect pallies to match warriors on AOE, but it seems like every other DPS class has some really fancy or rock-solid, mostly-spammable AOE ability, and we have jack. Does this improve? Am I doing something wrong? I have no complaints about my AOE as prot, but ret just feels terrible...
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90 Human Paladin
9970
At 90, our AoE is pretty solid. Hammer of the Righteous and Divine Storm are our bread-and-butter for AoE, and do decently well. When you're actively speccing for AoE, Mass Exorcism and Light's Hammer bring things up another several notches.

Scaling is wonky below 90 though, especially for weapon attacks, so HotR/DS will be relatively weaker in the 60s than they are in Pandaria.
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90 Human Paladin
10645
Do you recommend light's hammer at 90 over execution sentence for PvE? I can't imagine it's of much use on boss fights.
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100 Draenei Paladin
17310
Everything Rav said.

Do you recommend light's hammer at 90 over execution sentence for PvE? I can't imagine it's of much use on boss fights.


Execution Sentence for single target boss fights, trash and any bosses with multiple long living targets Lights Hammer. That's how it generally goes in PVE.

Holy Prism is situationally useful in PVE for Ret but sees most of it's use in PVP.
Edited by Cadenbrie on 5/17/2013 12:05 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
9970
I recommend LH over ES for AoE situations. Talents and glyphs should be changed whenever necessary.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8510
I used to like having Divine Purpose for trash. Sometimes I would get a string of 4-5 procs all dumped into Divine Storm, and my wife would be like "Woah, what just happened". But the rest of the time she would melt my face because she's a Shadow Priest. But every now and then, I could feel good about myself!

DP is tons of fun on bosses, too, in terms of mixing up your priority queue, but sadly it just doesn't perform as well as Sanctified Wrath. I really, really wish it was a competitive choice.

Rant over!
Edited by Ingsoc on 5/17/2013 2:46 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
10640
Don't forget to swap to Seal of Righteousness if there are four or more targets. Not sure how effective it is pre-90, but it's a noticeable increase at 90.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14135
Don't forget to swap to Seal of Righteousness if there are four or more targets. Not sure how effective it is pre-90, but it's a noticeable increase at 90.


Putting censure on multiple targets>seal of righteousness. Also improves damage from judgement glyph.

LH can be used both as a raid cooldown for periods of high damage you can stack on or aoe against multiple targets. (2+)
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90 Tauren Paladin
10640
Putting censure on multiple targets>seal of righteousness. Also improves damage from judgement glyph.

On up to three targets, yes. Righteousness beats Truth at four or more.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
Censure stacks do not benefit Judgment in any way, now; only glyphing Double Jeopardy and changing targets will increase Judgement's damage. But that, plus Censure stacking shouldn't be equal to SoR at 4+, now - especially not with MExo and 2pT15.
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90 Draenei Paladin
8355
Mass Exo is awesome (minus the range decrease), and I never minded having HotR. But Divine Storm is just so not fun when you have to save up 3 hp just to be able to use it. And Light's Hammer is just no Holy Wrath or Consecration. Especially with that awful cooldown and sometimes annoying snare (annoying PvE-wise anyway).

I really miss our older AoE powers. I'm still peeved about Blizz taking them away from Ret.
Edited by Havia on 5/17/2013 12:27 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
I miss Cons for sustained AoE, but that's about all it's been good for as Ret. And we don't really need another button in our ST rotation; Cons would get stuck in there somewhere as free damage.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10640
05/17/2013 12:26 PMPosted by Havia
But Divine Storm is just so not fun when you have to save up 3 hp just to be able to use it.

It's pretty strong, at least.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
05/17/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Keten
Putting censure on multiple targets>seal of righteousness. Also improves damage from judgement glyph.

On up to three targets, yes. Righteousness beats Truth at four or more.

The 4-target figure assumes you're not rolling Censure on multiple targets, actually. With multi-Censure (and the GCD required to switch seals), the required number of targets is higher.
Edited by Ravicana on 5/17/2013 3:04 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
10640
The 4-target figure assumes you're not rolling Censure on multiple targets, actually. With multi-Censure (and the GCD required to switch seals), the required number of targets is higher.

Rolling it on how many targets, though? In my experience, Righteousness at four targets definitely outdamages keeping Censure rolling on two out of the four targets, and I personally have a lot of trouble keeping Censure up on three targets at a time. >.>
Edited by Keten on 5/17/2013 3:15 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
9970
Some quick napkin math seems to suggest that two Censures requires 6 targets for SoR to pull ahead, and three Censures requires 8 targets. In non-boss fights where the time spent building stacks is a non-negligible fraction of the fight, those numbers should probably be revised downward somewhat.

And yeah, maintaining Censure on 3+ targets is annoying; I can do a lot of damage on Stone Guard that way, but it's extremely tedious.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10640
Yeah, it's really only applicable on trash and most 4+ trash packs don't live long enough for Censure to do a whole lot, which is probably why I see better results with Righteousness.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10750
Provence, it gets better once you get mastery and inquisition.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14135
Censure multitarget isn't actually terribly difficult to keep up with. Tab after each autoattack, judge, or hotr and victory is yours. Important thing is to not lose autoattacks. Mouseover macros or just clickies on fights like council will let you keep censure up on Kazra and/or whichever other mobs you have further away. Seal of Truth allows for ranged aoe of sorts and synergizes well with judgement glyph. I find it a highly rewarding way to improve my dps as censure is 5k dps~ per 5stack. On fights like wind lord you can just tab and get a new stack of censure almost every global. You'll naturally refresh half of your stacks at least which is far superior to seal of righteousness. To me, SoR is for massive aoe pulls 15+ and for lazy people. I still will use SoT on AoE pulls in CMs and whatnot when there is one target that needs to be single targetted down - just switch to the High HP target and it improves overall damage for the group increasing times.

SoR = lazy or 15+ equal hp targets.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10640
You can't get a new stack every global, even on single-target; that's impossible outside of maybe Bloodlust. Only single-target melee attacks apply/refresh Censure, which means auto-attacks, CS, TV, and Judgment.

If you're actually AoEing, you're only applying/refreshing Censure with auto-attacks and Judgment, so are you single-targeting enemies with CS/TV to keep stacks up? Considering that HotR and DS out-damage CS and TV on even two targets, I kind of doubt that's actually a gain.
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