Question.. Will it receive a LOGICAL answer?

100 Gnome Mage
15020
05/11/2013 07:29 AMPosted by Kcbearing
Certainly, there are the naturally-social types, more than willing to interact and haggle, to do favors and expect the same from others, to make friends and all that, but I assert that this type of person is in the minority,


Well I guess I am your minority then! Bah you don't have to claim you don't like it by reason of insanity. Sane people don't like it either!
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100 Gnome Mage
15020
Instead of only have 2 professions per battle net account, put all trade recipes on something like the August Celestials quartermaster. Make it easy for mains to get but more time consuming for alts to get. Keep trying to reinforce crafting mains > crafting alts.


What a stupid idea... you are just trying to drive away those of us who don't really have a "main" I have 6 90s and ALL of them are my mains
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100 Gnome Mage
15020
Well snow, enjoy the single player game youll be in when blizz destroys our alts and makes the recent sub loss look pale in comparison.


Got that right! I could be out playing skyrim or the next Neverwinter nights.
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100 Gnome Mage
15020
Is really a shame anyway that you have to even start multiple toons to get All the professions. I would like to just play one toon and be able to get all professions maxed on that one toon. I'd sure farm for materials a lot more that way.

I know a lot of this game is designed to make you spend LOTS and LOTS of time doing things. Like walking at low levels, like flying from one flight path to the next, etc........

Let us at least be able to max out all professions on one toon.


That would be cool... And share them between all of your toons. I got some profs just for my guild but I don't really have a main some days I play a mage some days a thunder chicken some days I'm a DK tank others I am a hunter. I like all of them... None of them is a "main" and I don't see why anyone should be forced to play a single character considering they screw around with the classes so much that they can make you hate a class that you loved in a previous expansion!
Edited by Magnata on 5/11/2013 11:35 PM PDT
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100 Gnome Mage
15020
I did say against an alt that is barely played. It should be a lot more difficult than it currently is for a player to get the valued recipes for all the professions. I'm fine with the ones that were gated behind august celestial exalted, but they added too many mechanics to reduce that grind. I'd like to see the bar set high for valuable profession recs. The recipes should have upgrades as well. Like the belt buckle recipe being August Celestial exalted, then the next patch you need to get something similar to continue making belt buckles. I feel like an alt should have to play on a semi regular basis to keep up with crafting mains.


What part of not being a masochist who loves freakiing grinds don't you understand. I HATE that and find it totally annoying to the extent that I would join the rest of the 4 million who left since wrath. That is all!
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
10545
05/11/2013 10:01 PMPosted by Snow
Why? You both put in the work necessary to get to a certain rank/level, so each should benefit equally from the profession.
I did say against an alt that is barely played. It should be a lot more difficult than it currently is for a player to get the valued recipes for all the professions. I'm fine with the ones that were gated behind august celestial exalted, but they added too many mechanics to reduce that grind. I'd like to see the bar set high for valuable profession recs. The recipes should have upgrades as well. Like the belt buckle recipe being August Celestial exalted, then the next patch you need to get something similar to continue making belt buckles. I feel like an alt should have to play on a semi regular basis to keep up with crafting mains.

If could only have two professions, what would happen is constant exploitation at the Auction House, that's all it would mean, and people would just be priced out of the market on a lot of materials they need, when you can make your alt professions, that keeps the prices low, and rampant exploitation in check.
How is it exploitation? You want to buy a shoulder enchant that's 300g, to get that you can sell something you make for the exact same price. The price being high is irrelevant if everything is selling at similar prices.


Actually, not all is fine with the market prices. Usually it's inflated due to AH flipping and rarity of the items in question.

Now that begets the question on who will be able to determine the market rate for all items? I won't trust any of those prices set by AH as they are usually inflated to the price that speculators determined.

I'm sure there are players like me that didn't want to be charged at an exorbitant prices, hence we have became self-sufficient. I remember Jade spirit enchant used to cost 6000 - 10000. Only recently has the market price fallen, probably due to low consumption mid -expansion.

Also, professions provide the well-earned perks that are better than the market ones.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
SRH
8755
WOW 10 pages.. And All Im asking if for the logic of Why Blood Spirits, and Haunting Spirits are BOE and allowed to be thrown around like theyre nothing important. But Harmonys are forced to stay with the one who farmed them. Why those toons with professions that have no use for them can only do 1 thing and thats vendor them. When they could serve such a greater purpose to ones alts. I can farm Bloods and Hauntings and pass them around to the world. But I cant give my own alts the Harmonys. This isnt a apples vs oranges question. Ever excuse will contradict the other.
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100 Orc Warlock
13535
I can understand not making motes BoE but making them BoA sounds reasonable. I appreciate their soulbound status because it makes crafted items that require the mats inherently profitable and it prevents botters from diminishing the value of mats in the AH.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
15420
05/11/2013 11:56 PMPosted by Vellestina
I did say against an alt that is barely played. It should be a lot more difficult than it currently is for a player to get the valued recipes for all the professions. I'm fine with the ones that were gated behind august celestial exalted, but they added too many mechanics to reduce that grind. I'd like to see the bar set high for valuable profession recs. The recipes should have upgrades as well. Like the belt buckle recipe being August Celestial exalted, then the next patch you need to get something similar to continue making belt buckles. I feel like an alt should have to play on a semi regular basis to keep up with crafting mains.

How is it exploitation? You want to buy a shoulder enchant that's 300g, to get that you can sell something you make for the exact same price. The price being high is irrelevant if everything is selling at similar prices.


Actually, not all is fine with the market prices. Usually it's inflated due to AH flipping and rarity of the items in question.

Now that begets the question on who will be able to determine the market rate for all items? I won't trust any of those prices set by AH as they are usually inflated to the price that speculators determined.

I'm sure there are players like me that didn't want to be charged at an exorbitant prices, hence we have became self-sufficient. I remember Jade spirit enchant used to cost 6000 - 10000. Only recently has the market price fallen, probably due to low consumption mid -expansion.

Also, professions provide the well-earned perks that are better than the market ones.


THIS 200%!!! People were priced out of the market at the beginning of the expansion, Noxxic would tell you, you need the Jade spirit enchant as a healer, but guess what, the prices were just absolutely through the roof, so the only way you were going to get it, is if you had an enchanter of your own, you can't just expect your guildies to pick up the tab for you all the time, so you ended up getting priced out of the market.

And what about the more fun professions, like engineering, I don't really see that as a gold making profession, but a profession merely for fun. This has to be the absolute worst suggestion I ever heard from Blizz.

And Hiway, I don't what logic goes through Blizzard head, with what should be soulbound and what shouldn't be sorry.
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100 Human Warrior
16700
A huge part of the problem with the blue response is that its another "We feel you will have more fun doing it our way!" instead of the "Well, we see the casual players leaving in droves, why? Oh, they think xxxxxxxx. Well, they are wrong because we say they are wrong."

I believe it was GC who said he hates when we jump to that. But its the truth.

If i spend the time and gold on leveling a profession for an alt, it should damn well help my main if i see fit. Including me being able to send over the god-awful BoP spirits and motes. I am sick of those damn things and their crap drop rates. This isnt about interaction. If i cant make it for myself then i am forced to go to the AH and pay out the rear for something. If that something requires BoP reagents, then its cost gos through the roof. Not fun. Could i spend all day in trade chat trying to find someone who can do it a bit cheaper? Probably. But then what about the dailies i need to do?
Oh, i just wasted all my free time looking to save 25% off the cost of the item i need and now i cant do dailies. Ive fallen behind on rep and look, now i cant afford to get the set of 3 Loot Coins for the 1 day i have off to do some of LFR. guess i just have to save them for next week.
------ Sorry Bashiok, your reasoning doesnt work for me. Its extremely disheartening to read because this falls under the whole "We tell you how your supposed to have fun. Deal with it" attitude Blizzard has taken with this entire expansion.

I have been a semi-casual player since launch and never have i felt so railroaded into a specific daily routine requirement in ANY game as i feel with WoW right now. I cant stand it. I wanted so badly to finish up the Wrathion quest line but that most likely will not happen because i cant stand to play WoW anymore. This expansion has made me feel like im being punished for having alts. And now im basically reading that im being punished for trying to be self-sufficient. Let me rephrase that. This entire expansion has me feeling like I am being punished for everything not related to raiding. Which for me, is everything.

The dailies, many people complain about them and then we are told "Hey! its DYNAMIC content! It changes every day even though there's only a pool of about 5 quests that MIGHT change! Get ready to do the same dailies every day!" (this is not a rant on the quests themselves. Many were very well designed and i enjoyed them. The FIRST time.) You forced dailies on us in an attempt to prolong game play and boy did it work. It worked right to the point of me not caring about the game play anymore. I hate dailies. I can tolerate them every now and then, but forcing them on us for faction rep was absolutely ridiculous.
- One of the blues said a while back something to the effect of "Why do people feel like they are being forced to do this stuff? We dont force you to!" Which was horribly incorrect. We ARE forced by the ramifications of NOT doing them. If i was raiding, it would have been even worse on that front because of the fact that i would have needed all the reps up as fast as possible to find the best purchase needed on valor to make up for a piece of gear not dropping. Instead i was a casual, who thanks to absolute GARBAGE luck, had to rely on the reps to mostly gear out at first.
- Raid Loot Tokens: Brilliant idea on 1 hand. Terrible game play experience on the other. This is another forced dailies thing. If we dont do dailies we lose out on chances for some extra loot. But hell, i win maybe 1 piece with a token every 20 rolls. So i guess it doesnt really matter anyway.

Now for the good.
I really enjoyed the leveling experience through MoP. The quests were fun and interesting. The scenery and art was beautiful. The voice acting was great. The music was amazing. I love everything about those aspects.

back to the bad.
None of that managed to keep me even remotely entertained in the end. You killed my love of playing my alts. You killed my want to do LFR by giving really bad drop rates. You destroyed my playing experience by making me feel like i should be sitting in a corner wearing a dunce hat.

Half of this is probably incoherent babling to most, insomnia does that me sadly. But i had to get it off my chest before i cancel my account. The way things were handled by both the Devs and the CMs in many cases has left me with a very sour taste and I believe this will most likely be both my last post on the forums and the final month i ever pay for WoW.
I find no joy in the current model thats been put forth in the game. Its completely anti-casual.

But on the upside, if a CM reads this: Please tell your Art, Music, and Voice teams they did an amazing job. The writers did great as well. I loved the lore behind the Thunder King and the stories told through the raids and the quests leading to them. (this includes all of the story stuff for the expansion. I loved the Sha story.)

Edit: After having re-read my own post, i realized that this may just be me getting tired of MMOs in general. But i also had to re-read the subscriber count loss which makes me think i may very well have hit the nail on the head with the whole Anti-casual feel of this expanion.
Edited by Jerrod on 5/12/2013 3:13 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18245

The intent with professions is that you can only have two


Err, those of us with the Master Of All achievement would respectfully suggest that the intent is clearly not developer-wide ;)

Over the years a number of things have changed and lessened those interactions based around professions, but probably none more impactful than alts. With good intentions to help people catch up to the end-game, it of course allows for people to have more alts with more professions, which in turn reduces reliance on others and shrinks the reasons you have to interact with others.


I interact with others ALL the time. I make stuff free of charge for people asking in Trade chat. I make stuff for guildies. And yes, I make stuff for myself. I have little choice when, as others have already pointed out, when you're on a dead realm it's not always a case of "just get someone to make it for you or buy it off the AH". If I didn't have my professions team I would certainly not pass the "character audit" on this very web site on ANY of my characters. (That's "characters", not "alts". I don't have any alts. This one is the de facto "main" only because she was my first :)


It can also lessen the personal value of playing and connecting with a character. When you have everything, your personal connection to any one of those things is diluted, and you naturally care a little less about each.


That's a broad generalisation. I certainly don't feel any lesser connection with any of my characters for them having their professions.

Let me also explain why they do have them. I love levelling professions. LOVE IT. Ask my guildies, they'll tell you I'm nuts for profession levelling, the harder the better. I'm disappointed at moves to make levelling professions easy one-stop-shop things, and very happy I levelled all of my profs before that happened (I earned Iron Chef back when you had to have every single recipe IN THE ENTIRE GAME ;)

I love hunting down old recipes and get a thrill when I am, say, running Tempest Keep and a pattern drops that my tailor doesn't have. It's FUN.

So sure, I'm self sufficient (to a point - there's still stuff I need others for). But when it comes to things like, say, the Dancing Steel or Jade Spirit enchants, if I couldn't make those myself, I would be heading into Throne of Thunder LFR unenchanted. 5000 gold or more for a single enchant just isn't a consideration.

Note also that I didn't make my characters to be profession mules. I made them to play the various classes, and because I love levelling. I play my characters. ALL of them. Not always at the same time, mainly because of the amount of time certain activities in the game need sunk into them. But they all get played. They also happen to make me stuff. I worked hard to make that happen. Why is it seen as a "bad thing"?


Maybe one solution is we could say you can only have two professions per Battle.net account! And really strong arm people into it, but of course that'd be a pretty negative change in taking so much away.


"Pretty" negative? Understatement of the year there. Imagine those people with now-unobtainable crafting recipes who would have to choose which ones to lose, for one thing. And us profession fans would have suddenly had a big chunk of our enjoyment of the game sliced away.

I would like to doubt that you were even half serious, but your post here follows Ghostcrawler saying some weeks ago on Twitter that people having profession alts was "not okay". There seems to be internal rumblings on this topic and it worries me.

I wonder if the person who added the "Master of All" achievement is feeling worried too ;)
Edited by Audrena on 5/12/2013 4:57 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18245

BTW, Dreamcloth says hello. And still a one-week cooldown to make with farmable mats.


Incorrect. A no-cooldown Dreamcloth recipe was added in 4.3 - "Dream Of Destruction". 8 Embersilk Cloth, 4 Chaos Orbs, no cooldown.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
11780
We like that people enjoy having alts. It's been a personal hobby of mine to continually level characters, and it's of course something a lot of people do. However, in some ways it works against some game systems that are intended to be a part of the MMO experience. Professions are one such system.

The intent with professions is that you can only have two, and for all the other professions you don't have you have to work with others within the game to get what you need. Say you're a blacksmith, and you can make an item another player or even that player's profession needs, and that interplay creates interpersonal interactions and even those small interactions feed into the larger social experience. Over the years a number of things have changed and lessened those interactions based around professions, but probably none more impactful than alts. With good intentions to help people catch up to the end-game, it of course allows for people to have more alts with more professions, which in turn reduces reliance on others and shrinks the reasons you have to interact with others.

Most people don't keep tons of alts geared up for end-game, but quite a few do have alts that are there to help 'feed' their one or two main characters. Which is where the binding comes in. You're playing on one character, getting motes/spirits, and wanting to transfer those to alts to make stuff, which then feeds back to your main in either the items made, or the gold from selling them. That's totally understandable, but really fundamentally goes against the intent of profession limits. It can also lessen the personal value of playing and connecting with a character. When you have everything, your personal connection to any one of those things is diluted, and you naturally care a little less about each.

I understand that may be a hard sell because it's a limitation and not letting people do whatever they want, but it's at least logical. I think it is, anyway. :) Maybe one solution is we could say you can only have two professions per Battle.net account! And really strong arm people into it, but of course that'd be a pretty negative change in taking so much away. Instead saying here's an item that we really want you to earn and use on the character you're playing and obtained it with to reinforce the value in playing that character (and not just shipping items off to crafting alts). People still have crafting alts, of course, and some choose to play them a little just to seek out the motes/spirits, and that's ok. What we don't want is to encourage the notion that you can just play one character and keep a cadre of alts that ensure you have everything you'll ever need. Working with others to achieve great things is by and large the overarching point of these kinds of games.

All that said we have tended to remove the soulbinding of these types of crafting materials as the expansion that introduced them draws to an end.


To be honest I agree with you that some patterns and limits are nice. I do not think that I should have access to everything unless I play that alt some to get access to it.

However basic items that are learned by a trainer require Spirits of harmony. I should be able at this point in the expansion move them to my alts to make these basic things.

I guess if you want to wait until the end of the expansion then I guess a few million more people will have to leave the game until you start reacting faster to what the players want.

This game is not free to play. So waiting is not really something people have to do since we pay money to you every month to fund the game.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6180
05/10/2013 02:19 PMPosted by Bashiok
We like that people enjoy having alts. It's been a personal hobby of mine to continually level characters, and it's of course something a lot of people do. However, in some ways it works against some game systems that are intended to be a part of the MMO experience. Professions are one such system.


What happened was that you guys deregulated alt-leveling from wrath all through cata, and now you've brought back incredibly harsh restrictions. Your intent is admirable (cough, well not really), but I'm sure a portion of the 1.2 million subs you've lost found it very annoying.
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Bashiok.... I think you are really grasping at straws with this explanation. Professions have always played a minor role in the social aspect of WoW. If you are really so worried about the social environment, how can you justify something like raid finder that has ran it strait into the ground? Your developers are actively seeking ways to destroy it wholesale, and yet your holding onto this? Something that makes little difference except to annoy and exasperate your player base.

By your logic we should really remove all the portals in the world too! Send us back to the dark ages of begging mages for ports or *Gasp* actually running through the world like we should be!
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90 Goblin Priest
14310
Bashiok... I am one of those players you describe. I have an "army" of alts with professions leveled up to helps my main(s). I didn't level them up to 90 and max their professions out to avoid the social element, I did it to increase my social interaction. Me, my friends, my guildies all grew tired of feeding the AH millionaires. We now feed each other at little or no cost. We also help people in need when they come back to the game. YOU guys designed this unregulated economy, the only thing in the game that never resets. Now you post that you are trying to enhance our game experience by not allowing us to use the materials we gather. Your argument is complete rubbish. Tell your PR Dept they failed on that post.
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11 Troll Hunter
0
WOW 10 pages.. And All Im asking if for the logic of Why Blood Spirits, and Haunting Spirits are BOE and allowed to be thrown around like theyre nothing important. But Harmonys are forced to stay with the one who farmed them. Why those toons with professions that have no use for them can only do 1 thing and thats vendor them. When they could serve such a greater purpose to ones alts. I can farm Bloods and Hauntings and pass them around to the world. But I cant give my own alts the Harmonys. This isnt a apples vs oranges question. Ever excuse will contradict the other.


Well sorry the post got taken off the rails, blame Bashiok for revealing how much they want to take away our legion of game destroying alts that use their professions to enable mains to not interact with the auction house. Boy, that would be disastrous if the AH was a real money auction house, wouldn't it? The logic of your OP is undisputed, id say. However your post revealed a dark intent toward profession alts, and that is needed to be discussed much more than the obvious logic of making Harmonies BOA.

When i level an alt and their professions, arrent I out playing the game? Isnt that a time investment that makes me value my account and want to keep it going? Isnt doing all that keeping me engaged after my main has good enough gear and normal/heroic raids on farm? isnt that something that makes someone try out a different race/class? I personally wouldnt be interested in making other characters if they didnt have overall value to each other. I havent considered playing alliance until recently, when I realized pets are interchangable between factions on your own characters. Sure is easier to get a stormwind rat pet on an alliance char than it is a horde.

Bashiok, while you think profession alts is a bad thing for the game, anything that gets players to try out different races, classes, etc is good for the long term entertainment factor. If all I had to worry about is my main because my alts wouldnt be able to assist my main at all, Id quit, or at best id play my main to my satisfaction of gearing/seeing the content, then quit till the next patch/expansion. You made a dangerous statement there bud, time to backpeddle and at least put us at ease that you wont be ravaging our alts. Do what you want in Titan, I wont be playing it anyway.
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11 Troll Hunter
0
Besides, Professions in this game are a pale imitation of much better crafting/profession systems. I read an article on the influences of wow developers, and Ultima Online was mentioned as being the inspiration for wow professions. I found that funny, since the Wow system is simplistic and brain dead compared to Ultima online. The time investment is minimal, the process robotic, and the end result carbon copy. From what I read Star Wars Galaxies had an intricate crafting system too. Even calling the wow system Crafting is a joke. But dont make it worse by ripping all our investment in time and gold away.
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While we're on the subject of professions. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get rid of this idiotic RNG element you've put into learning recipes and the random enchants. Nothing screams lazy cheap design more than using RNG IN EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of the game.

As developers you blather about "getting people out in the world" for your onerous daily design and then you remove unique mats from recipes that people at one time had to travel "out in the world" for.

Maybe just freaking maybe, my hunter doesn't want to learn INTEL leather at this point in time.
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11 Troll Hunter
0
Leatherworking is just painful for that. You have mail and leather patterns to learn spanning a ton of classes. I learn an agility leather pattern and think i got something i can make and wear and NOPE! Its for a monk.
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