Question.. Will it receive a LOGICAL answer?

90 Human Warlock
6695
05/10/2013 02:19 PMPosted by Bashiok
Say you're a blacksmith, and you can make an item another player or even that player's profession needs, and that interplay creates interpersonal interactions and even those small interactions feed into the larger social experience.


The social experience isn't something that should be brought up as a positive, especially when you're saying you want someone's game experience to be dictated by the community. The lengths people go to to avoid the community should be telling you there is something very rotten in Denmark.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10950
which in turn reduces reliance on others and shrinks the reasons you have to interact with others.


This is a sad reason to do such. You are trying to force people to play nice with each other when infact you are helping many rip off trusting souls.

I help all I can on my professions and even toon hop to required profession to help. I see them trustingly place their items and gold tip in the window. I would never do it, but have heard many then leave, taking the mats and gold and not returning anything to the people.

If you want more interaction of people, do some more of the odd off the wall stuff. I see more people talking to each other when a strange mob shows up in an odd location.

I feel for the people who ask for a profession in trade- they get trolled alot.

I think y'all need to spend a bit more time with your customer base to see how things are working and not working.
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90 Worgen Warlock
6500
Sorry Bashiok. with respect, I think your argument is logical, but flawed.

Generally, if you contact another player to get something crafted you usually supply the materials: leather, cloth, gems whatever. For items that require SOH/MOH to make you simply cannot provide that. The crafter has to use THEIR supply of harmonies to craft anything for anyone else.

This makes no sense.

Unless it was for one of my wife's toons, I don't want to spend hours & hours farming motes just so I can make something for someone else (I think that would fall into the "Job" category. )

MOH/SOH need to at least be account bound instead of soulbound. It just makes no sense the way it is.
Edited by Lonewolve on 5/10/2013 3:04 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
10950
05/10/2013 03:01 PMPosted by Lonewolve
The crafter has to use THEIR supply of harmonies to craft anything for anyone else.


This! Need someway the customer can bring these soulbound items to the crafter. Might even help keep some more honest and not run off with mats and gold without returning the crafted item to their customer.
Edited by Ayrthrina on 5/10/2013 3:08 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
18425
Generally, if you contact another player to get something crafted you usually supply the materials: leather, cloth, gems whatever. For items that require SOH/MOH to make you simply cannot provide that. The crafter has to use THEIR supply of harmonies to craft anything for anyone else.


That right there is why the soulbound argument makes no sense. I'll make pvp gear for some random mook on the street, but I am not spending Spirits on people I don't know.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
SRH
8755
I can farm or buy a Blood/Haunting Spirit for my alt. But I can not farm or buy a Spirit of Harmony?

Sorry Blue. But I feel Blue Logic can sometimes be flawed logic. I see so much contradiction when changes are made. And its not the changes themselves. It the reasons behind the changes that contradict why other changes havent been made.

Some of the responses from others here have some pretty strong evidence to back me up.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13135
05/10/2013 02:19 PMPosted by Bashiok
Which is where the binding comes in. You're playing on one character, getting motes/spirits, and wanting to transfer those to alts to make stuff, which then feeds back to your main in either the items made, or the gold from selling them. That's totally understandable, but really fundamentally goes against the intent of profession limits.


You are binding motes and SoH because you want people to interact more? If I want something bad enough and my alt, who I may not play as much as another toon, has the prof that can create something I need, I am going to farm it regardless. The only thing you are doing by making SoH Bind-on-pickup is slowing me down to my end goal and creating an annoyance. You do not in anyway make me interact with another player or increase that experience.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
4335
My beef with the Blood/HSpirit system is this: The drop rate is far too low. I think in the 4-5 months my 3 90s have been grinding, I think I have 6 Bloods between them; and no haunting spirits. The fact that they're not account tradeable bugs me too. To add fuel, the 496 pattern drops aren't hitting either. I have yet to see one over 3 chrs. Maybe it's just bad RNG for me. But I'd think with dozens of bosses under my noob self belt, I'd have gotten at least one...

Furthermore. what I find interesting is that while we can daily create a crafting base item like Imperial silk or Magnificent hide, it takes far more Bloods or Spirits - which iirc are not exactly farmable - to create an item; while only using 2 or 3 base mats, which can be created nearly at will. I'd like to see the mat numbers reversed; i.e. 8 silk, 2-3 Haunting Spirits.

Ya, I know... RNG/drop rate whine...

Ed and I thank you for for your support.
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12 Human Warrior
12100
We like that people enjoy having alts. It's been a personal hobby of mine to continually level characters, and it's of course something a lot of people do. However, in some ways it works against some game systems that are intended to be a part of the MMO experience. Professions are one such system.

The intent with professions is that you can only have two, and for all the other professions you don't have you have to work with others within the game to get what you need. Say you're a blacksmith, and you can make an item another player or even that player's profession needs, and that interplay creates interpersonal interactions and even those small interactions feed into the larger social experience. Over the years a number of things have changed and lessened those interactions based around professions, but probably none more impactful than alts. With good intentions to help people catch up to the end-game, it of course allows for people to have more alts with more professions, which in turn reduces reliance on others and shrinks the reasons you have to interact with others.

Most people don't keep tons of alts geared up for end-game, but quite a few do have alts that are there to help 'feed' their one or two main characters. Which is where the binding comes in. You're playing on one character, getting motes/spirits, and wanting to transfer those to alts to make stuff, which then feeds back to your main in either the items made, or the gold from selling them. That's totally understandable, but really fundamentally goes against the intent of profession limits. It can also lessen the personal value of playing and connecting with a character. When you have everything, your personal connection to any one of those things is diluted, and you naturally care a little less about each.

I understand that may be a hard sell because it's a limitation and not letting people do whatever they want, but it's at least logical. I think it is, anyway. :) Maybe one solution is we could say you can only have two professions per Battle.net account! And really strong arm people into it, but of course that'd be a pretty negative change in taking so much away. Instead saying here's an item that we really want you to earn and use on the character you're playing and obtained it with to reinforce the value in playing that character (and not just shipping items off to crafting alts). People still have crafting alts, of course, and some choose to play them a little just to seek out the motes/spirits, and that's ok. What we don't want is to encourage the notion that you can just play one character and keep a cadre of alts that ensure you have everything you'll ever need. Working with others to achieve great things is by and large the overarching point of these kinds of games.

All that said we have tended to remove the soulbinding of these types of crafting materials as the expansion that introduced them draws to an end.


The worst part of this game is the other people in it. The less I have to deal with them, the better. CRZs only reinforce that notion. Other players are always there, taking what you need - resources, mobs, quest items, etc, and breaking the concept of immersion. Seeing another person out in the world SUCKS.

This isn't world of Facebook, no matter how much you want it to be.

Until you actually give good reasons to make seeing other people in the game a *GOOD* thing, it's unlikely I'll ever see this differently.

It's unfortunate, really, because WoW could be an excellent game - if it weren't for the people and the implementation the developers insist is "fun" but really isn't.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11145
Bashiok...

I love the explanation and I love the way developers work to find mechanics to favor a middle ground between goals and varying player desires.

I see how the mote's/spirit thing does that ..... it makes alts that aren't played a little less valuable than mains (or Alts that play more parts of the game beyond their role as a crafter).

Of course, like you said some people get mad if they have limitations and FAR too many people don't like to find Shades of Gray compromises. Compromises almost always accomplish some aims but not others.. or they incrementally help.

I don't know if it is the forums, or some greater societal thread.. but the concept of mutual accommodation and compromise being the best "win" for all has given way to expectations of a "all or nothing" you win or you lose applied to almost any area .

There are lots of shades of grey on yourside and I think you (espeically if you have alts) can appreciate how if you didn't have as many incentives to half production alts, many people would have never spent the time.. with some "unintended" fun along the way. The alts need transmogs -- you learn a little more about game dynamics by playing other classes, or even find you love the other class... lured in intially by the prospect of "getting rich" having another profession. I've had many alts languish at 40 or 50 and the desire for that extra profession (if ony for the achievement . but also for the "passive income" of the cool downs" gave me a reason to do something more.. INSTEAD of Logging out.

If end up playing another game after I've accomplished my gear upgrades for the week on this character... well.. maybe I play too much already but knowing myself I'd be playing a different game with those hours..

Getting mats to alts to use for their coold downs gives(for a fair sized minority I expect) a daily sense of "accomplishment" for those of us who kind of enjoy the mild pleasant feeling of having "got somewhere" if only in a game before we go to sleep... putting work and family complications out of mind in ways tv doesnt'.

If my Alchemist didn't need 10 bars of ghost iron, I wouldn't have much reason to fly around in the world, (a different social goal) mining nodes and maybe wandering on rares or even a bit of pvp or even a race with people in the same faction. I may have capped valor and run the LFR and know when my shot for ToT will be and have large portions of the other nights if not all, to really have nothing to do to advance. As I've already chased the valor.. for me.. doing the dungeons on alts is less fun than flying around mining... well.. i like to mix it up instead of goign full bore like i might on char 1.
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90 Worgen Druid
5825
The truth and reality behind social interaction in this MMO: The reasons that a lot of people just want to play this game solo:

1) There are a bunch of very nice people that play this game. However, there are twice as many people that are rude, name call, gripe about trivial things, AFK dungeons and raids, pvp, votekick people because they have had a bad day, or just generally be douches.

2) When asking guildies if they want to raid, or do heroics, those requests usually are ignored.

3) Douches grab things in dungeons that they can never use for their toon just to be douches.

4) The prices on the AH are overinflated. (and that is not just the level 90 things.) Doesn't make me want to be socially interactive with those people who just want to rip off my hard earned gold.

5) Little boys talking about their private parts and girl private parts...UGH..This is a game..Save that talk for your doctor or a locker room.

6) Remote chat: Not everyone has remote chat.

7) When asked for help with a raid or a dungeon or whatever, the typical response is (and that is if there is a response at all) "You can solo that now"

8) Little boys that cuss when people are in Battlegrounds. That gets irritating. What gets really old is the terms: terrible player, noob, and the one I really hate: scrub.

9) Ive heard several people in trade chat say this: "why dont you just kill yourself" You are worthless. (eh, I dont need to associate with that type of person) actually, this is a reportable offense and I will report if I see it.
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64 Tauren Death Knight
13070
I agree with the OP mainly because there was a crafting item that you got from bosses that was originally bop back in cata or wrath I can't remember whicn right now. THen they saw sense and made it BOE


This has happened with EVERY expansion.

..and later in the expansion, they have ALWAYS become unbound.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that motes/spirits will be treated any differently.
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90 Troll Rogue
10775
Having gathering professions on your main seems like a stupid idea.

Just because people want to play alts doesn't mean that game developers should be making things easier to cater to you. A lot of people got used to this in wotlk and cataclysm because gearing up was so easy, but that's not the way it should be, and I'm glad they made that change.

If you need something on another character, then play that character, it's really that simple.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
17055
05/10/2013 02:19 PMPosted by Bashiok
What we don't want is to encourage the notion that you can just play one character and keep a cadre of alts that ensure you have everything you'll ever need.


Totally understandable from Blizz's point of view. My account and alt setup is only from necessity from rolling on an EST realm while I live on an island in the Pacific Ocean (HST). I have a guild full of professionals but they're just not online when I am. Hence my alts with every profession so I have my own shopping mall anytime I need something.

So while what the OP is whining for would make life easier for me, being pragmatic and realistic, I make up my own solutions to enable me to keep playing. I want to gem my new hat at 4am server, I can without paying exorbitant prices.

Pragmatic And frugal!
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90 Human Priest
11705
We like that people enjoy having alts. It's been a personal hobby of mine to continually level characters, and it's of course something a lot of people do. However, in some ways it works against some game systems that are intended to be a part of the MMO experience. Professions are one such system.

The intent with professions is that you can only have two, and for all the other professions you don't have you have to work with others within the game to get what you need. Say you're a blacksmith, and you can make an item another player or even that player's profession needs, and that interplay creates interpersonal interactions and even those small interactions feed into the larger social experience. Over the years a number of things have changed and lessened those interactions based around professions, but probably none more impactful than alts. With good intentions to help people catch up to the end-game, it of course allows for people to have more alts with more professions, which in turn reduces reliance on others and shrinks the reasons you have to interact with others.

Most people don't keep tons of alts geared up for end-game, but quite a few do have alts that are there to help 'feed' their one or two main characters. Which is where the binding comes in. You're playing on one character, getting motes/spirits, and wanting to transfer those to alts to make stuff, which then feeds back to your main in either the items made, or the gold from selling them. That's totally understandable, but really fundamentally goes against the intent of profession limits. It can also lessen the personal value of playing and connecting with a character. When you have everything, your personal connection to any one of those things is diluted, and you naturally care a little less about each.

I understand that may be a hard sell because it's a limitation and not letting people do whatever they want, but it's at least logical. I think it is, anyway. :) Maybe one solution is we could say you can only have two professions per Battle.net account! And really strong arm people into it, but of course that'd be a pretty negative change in taking so much away. Instead saying here's an item that we really want you to earn and use on the character you're playing and obtained it with to reinforce the value in playing that character (and not just shipping items off to crafting alts). People still have crafting alts, of course, and some choose to play them a little just to seek out the motes/spirits, and that's ok. What we don't want is to encourage the notion that you can just play one character and keep a cadre of alts that ensure you have everything you'll ever need. Working with others to achieve great things is by and large the overarching point of these kinds of games.

All that said we have tended to remove the soulbinding of these types of crafting materials as the expansion that introduced them draws to an end.


Read: aren't you thankful?
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10 Worgen Warlock
0
I don't quite follow Bashiok on his "logic". =/

They aren't hard to obtain though; plant your farm, which takes five minutes per alt, there's 3 SoH every other day. Do one daily hub and get several motes.

05/10/2013 05:12 PMPosted by Scótt
Having gathering professions on your main seems like a stupid idea.

My main is my very first character. Naturally I chose gathering profs to have more gold as I leveled. Didn't see the point in re-learning new professions just because she hit max, when I was leveling alts for that.
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90 Worgen Warlock
6500
Having gathering professions on your main seems like a stupid idea.

Just because people want to play alts doesn't mean that game developers should be making things easier to cater to you. A lot of people got used to this in wotlk and cataclysm because gearing up was so easy, but that's not the way it should be, and I'm glad they made that change.

If you need something on another character, then play that character, it's really that simple.


I think you may have missed the point.

It isn't any "easier" to farm motes/spirits on 10 characters than it is to do it on 1. If you want a BS to make armour for your DK it will cost 8 spirits for each piece. But you can't GIVE the BS any spirits to make your armour, the BS has to use the spirits HE has had to grind for. If these things were account bound (at least) then all time spent gathering these on alts wouldn't necessarily be wasted (especially if the alts have professions (mining/skinning) that dont require them.) since you could just transfer them where needed. As it is now, the work acquiring them is done, but now they are just mouldering in the alts bank instead of being put to use.

It's not about making things "easier", it's about correcting something that doesn't make any sense in the first place.
Edited by Lonewolve on 5/10/2013 5:32 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
17055
You are trying to force people to play nice with each other when infact you are helping many rip off trusting souls.


I know this still happens sometimes but it's always restored by opening a GM ticket. Nobody gets ripped off permanently and the culprit has to give back the ill-gotten-gains (dunno what happens to the player but he should have to go sit in a corner for awhile, imo).

This should never stop you from interacting with others. I help others too (with my all-inclusive-crafting-store), especially when I notice someone's been crying in Trade for a while. Pity crafts - I won't even accept a tip. =P

So expect the best from others instead of fearing for the worst.
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90 Goblin Priest
8040
Wow, I had no idea about the design intent regarding alts and professions. In my mind, having all of the professions (and multiple Tillers farms) across all of my alts is the only reason to make alts in the first place. I tend to be a broke player (I think I have all of 7k gold across all of my characters), but it doesn't matter because I can just make whatever I need on another toon and/or produce the mats and get someone else to make it for a small tip.

Without the profession benefits, I would probably only keep one max level character.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16230
seriously folks? job or game?

blizzard has this plenty right. and while things are still going to be current, they should be bound to you. what would happen if everyone could trade spirits away to their other characters right now?

everyone would craft all sorts of stuff they need, and that would be it. now that sounds nice, but what if you're the BS who has some extras, and wants to make some money? you no longer have the hook of it has to be your spirit, it can be anyone's it devalues (not that those things are valuable for crying out loud, and shouldn't have much cash interest placed in them) your profession as a whole. there's no longer a 'oh, this guy doesn't have any, i'm gonna shop around thing, it'll be 'all my mats!' and whoever is the lowest bid takes the cake. which is also good, until you have no control over your pricing because you may be the only person that can make one.

I do not BELIEVE I just sided with capitalists.

it sounds good until you see what it does. if you remember chaos orbs being in demand once upon a time, you'd understand. when there was no longer a bind on them, no one had to sell them to anyone, so no one got the prime bonus of being the go-to guy.

if you want to do ANY complaining about materials, it should be on haunting spirits atm, and the rarity some people see them. those who aren't getting them likely can't afford them, because those who do farm them sell them like it took ages to get them.

the spirits will become unbound, until then, do the hard thing and level alts and farm them for that crafting, or use the personal interaction of a 'MMORPG' (for those that forgot, it's massively multiplayer online game) as was intended. be nice to others and they'll probably be nice back. but there's always the bad apple, but that's why you have the choice of finding someone else.
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