Question.. Will it receive a LOGICAL answer?

90 Human Paladin
10400
05/10/2013 02:19 PMPosted by Bashiok
What we don't want is to encourage the notion that you can just play one character and keep a cadre of alts that ensure you have everything you'll ever need.


The issue with that statement is you forget that most of the time the new patterns are from raid drops and most peoples alts won't have them. Even with this new model not everyone had every pattern when people needed it made so you still need to talk to other people to get it done. There have been times in this patch where i had to farm spirits on my pally even though i had enough on my priest or DK to make something for a guildmate and I had other plans for my play time that day. Some may say well you did not have to make that item for your guildie and to that i say if i did not what kind of guildmate would I be? Isn't one of the reasons to join a guild is to get help with things like this?
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90 Human Death Knight
16535
05/10/2013 02:19 PMPosted by Bashiok
With good intentions to help people catch up to the end-game, it of course allows for people to have more alts with more professions, which in turn reduces reliance on others and shrinks the reasons you have to interact with others.


No Bashiok, what reduces reliance on others is the fact that it's nearly impossible to find what you need, particularly on low-population realms. I've had to level and make one of every profession simply because I could search for days and not find a single person either able or willing to craft something as simple as a gem for me.

Not to mention, there is virtually NO profit in crafting anything when someone brings you mats. Perhaps the first week a new recipe drops you can charge a premium, but after that it's begging for tips. That further reduces participation since it's more profitable to do just about anything in the game but sit around and advertise your profession.

I blame the horribly out of date and poorly designed auction system. Why should people even bother listing something that they have to run to a mailbox, loot, and run to the AH to relist every two days? Why the hell isn't there an option to pay X and automatically relist an auction? Or a decaying auction that gradually lowers the price until it sells? Or a week long auction option? If the AH wasn't so poor (particularly on low-pop realms) then there would be much more ability to rely on others.

Don't sing about player interaction when you have failed to give us decent tools for profession interaction. Guild profession searches are awesome...why can't I search any guild, not just my own? Why not a way to "/who blacksmith 600" and get back results?

If you want to see people pick professions and focus on them as a specialty, then give us a way to sell our products and services without having to sit in trade 24-7 eyes peeled for "LF BS PST". The theme of Mists was supposed to get everyone out into the world after an expansion of everyone parked in SW/Org.

So, either give us better tools for interaction or let go of this outdated "forced interaction" design so we can be self-sufficient, particularly on realms that have been all but abandoned by Blizzard to begin with.
Edited by Adrim on 5/10/2013 6:10 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
9755
well said Bashiok. I do not agree with everything but I can understand your point of view on this.

When you have a profession that does not use them say alchemy. These are an incredible waste. While I can in fact convert them into something I can, use, there is no way I could use flasks at the rate I could generate them. Flasks have always sold poorly on my server, often bringing less than the raw mats. There is no real incentive to make more flasks than I need, therefore the spirits of harmony go to waste.

While I do not have alts, I would argue that making them BOP, is a waste for me. If I could sell them, I would be a happy camper.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
6720
Whats the point? The best crafted items in the game that don't require haunting spirits are the 502 BS weapons, so Harmony has been pretty useless for a long time now, I expect I'll end up junking them like my frozen orbs and all the other useless crafting mats.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
17085
When you have a profession that does not use them say alchemy. These are an incredible waste. While I can in fact convert them into something I can, use, there is no way I could use flasks at the rate I could generate them. Flasks have always sold poorly on my server, often bringing less than the raw mats. There is no real incentive to make more flasks than I need, therefore the spirits of harmony go to waste.


Spirits of harmony are never a waste for anyone. If your profession doesn't need them then trade it for other mats to use or sell. The nice guy outside the Shrine will take care of your needs.

My flasks are used upon expiration. My alts flask for gardening (they kinda have to, they're lousy!). Extras go into the gbank. I never sell what I can use myself unless someone is desperate. =P
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90 Worgen Rogue
13100
To be fair, it's insanely easy to get spirits of harmony at this moment in the game. I have a bunch on every 90 I have that I play often, most of the time they go to waste and just sit there.
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90 Pandaren Monk
10655
When you have everything, your personal connection to any one of those things is diluted, and you naturally care a little less about each.


I am really tired of blues making utterly subjective statements like this as though they're fact. Being told what does and doesn't matter to me (especially when you're wrong) gives me even less reason to believe that you're trying to make a game I will enjoy.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
17085
05/10/2013 07:52 PMPosted by Tanjiang
When you have everything, your personal connection to any one of those things is diluted, and you naturally care a little less about each.


I am really tired of blues making utterly subjective statements like this as though they're fact. Being told what does and doesn't matter to me (especially when you're wrong) gives me even less reason to believe that you're trying to make a game I will enjoy.


He's not talking about you personally. It's a generic figurative YOU. And his statement IS ao a fact and fits some of you, us and me. Cuz my personal connection to like getting new legs got diluted when I got a drop and every time another pair drops in like LFR, I don't care about them at all and I shard it with my new Enchanting.

See how it works?
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90 Night Elf Rogue
9180
But..logical doesn't always mean FUN or enjoyable : ( Shouldn't we be getting a little more fun and enjoyment out of a game?


Playing a video game doesn't mean everything has to be fun or enjoyable. Especially under the genre of an MMORPG, where the fun and enjoyment is fundamentally found with the sense of accomplishment (among other things).

Not sure why anyone would think that spirits/motes are such a huge factor towards the fun and enjoyment of WoW, but we all play for various reasons I guess. Assuming this is the case for you, you probably should look elsewhere until it does become BoA.

05/10/2013 02:49 PMPosted by Razina
The intent with professions is that you can only have two, and for all the other professions you don't have you have to work with others within the game to get what you need.


That might have been what you intended but it is not what the game is right now. Right now I need Enhancing, Tailoring, Inscription, Blacksmithing, and Jewel crafting just to take care of my main. If I get a new item I need to do several things to it to make it ready for raiding. I do not want to spend 500g on a gem every time I get a new item. God forbid I am running a toon with too specs. Now I am getting even MORE gear I have to spend money on.


God/Blizzard forbid that you end up contributing to an MMO's economy through the AH. It is exactly what the game is now, and has always been. You either take the time to skill up other professions (in the process, you level up alts) or you don't. You should also understand that that means you will need certain items that may not be available to be mailed/obtained through outside sources besides that specific alt. But I guess that's difficult for people to fully grasp.

It can also lessen the personal value of playing and connecting with a character. When you have everything, your personal connection to any one of those things is diluted, and you naturally care a little less about each.


Funny you use the EXACT opposite argument about dailies. If I do not want to grind dailies because the RNG gods have cursed me and I have nothing else I can do but dailies I am supposed to just hop to an alt and play there for a while. Which one is it? You can not use it one way for dailies and then use it the other way for this.


Why does it have to be one way or the other? They're two separate features with their own purpose and progression.

Working with others to achieve great things is by and large the overarching point of these kinds of games.


Then how to you explain all the talk of "Competition" and "Having to work for it" when you try and justify CRZ? Am I supposed to work together with people or is everything a race for resources? And please do not use a guild as an excuse. That is telling me I must be in a guild to do anything.


That is telling you that you need to adapt to a situation. Would it benefit you greater to gain the assistance of others? To befriend them? Or are you better off being by yourself in a game designed to be played with others? And why can't anyone use a guild as an excuse? It's not the only solution to a problem, but it's a damn good one.
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70 Goblin Shaman
5640
05/10/2013 02:49 PMPosted by Razina
Right now I need Enhancing, Tailoring, Inscription, Blacksmithing, and Jewel crafting just to take care of my main.


No you don't. Not at all.

All you need are your friends, guildies, trade chat and the auction house.

Actually, I'll admit that you might want to have a couple of alt to help earn and feed some money and, possibly, mats to your main -- if they have two crafting professions.

If you need all these different professions, then you're doing something wrong.

(edit)

No Bashiok, what reduces reliance on others is the fact that it's nearly impossible to find what you need, particularly on low-population realms. I've had to level and make one of every profession simply because I could search for days and not find a single person either able or willing to craft something as simple as a gem for me.


This I do have to concede. The man has a point.

Time to merge servers. Just do it.
Edited by Spazzshock on 5/10/2013 8:15 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
9180

Actually, I'll admit that you might want to have a couple of alt to help earn and feed some money and, possibly, mats to your main -- if they have two crafting professions.

If you need all these different professions, then you're doing something wrong.


Pretty much that. If you pick up two crafting professions, you didn't look into it better than you should have. Decisions should have an impact on what you do. Didn't know that LW would primarily need Skinning? Time to drop that other craft so you can pick up Skinning. Don't want to? That's fine, you can simply buy what you need from the AH. It's your choice.
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90 Worgen Warlock
12305
We like that people enjoy having alts. It's been a personal hobby of mine to continually level characters, and it's of course something a lot of people do. However, in some ways it works against some game systems that are intended to be a part of the MMO experience. Professions are one such system.

The intent with professions is that you can only have two, and for all the other professions you don't have you have to work with others within the game to get what you need. Say you're a blacksmith, and you can make an item another player or even that player's profession needs, and that interplay creates interpersonal interactions and even those small interactions feed into the larger social experience. Over the years a number of things have changed and lessened those interactions based around professions, but probably none more impactful than alts. With good intentions to help people catch up to the end-game, it of course allows for people to have more alts with more professions, which in turn reduces reliance on others and shrinks the reasons you have to interact with others.

Most people don't keep tons of alts geared up for end-game, but quite a few do have alts that are there to help 'feed' their one or two main characters. Which is where the binding comes in. You're playing on one character, getting motes/spirits, and wanting to transfer those to alts to make stuff, which then feeds back to your main in either the items made, or the gold from selling them. That's totally understandable, but really fundamentally goes against the intent of profession limits. It can also lessen the personal value of playing and connecting with a character. When you have everything, your personal connection to any one of those things is diluted, and you naturally care a little less about each.

I understand that may be a hard sell because it's a limitation and not letting people do whatever they want, but it's at least logical. I think it is, anyway. :) Maybe one solution is we could say you can only have two professions per Battle.net account! And really strong arm people into it, but of course that'd be a pretty negative change in taking so much away. Instead saying here's an item that we really want you to earn and use on the character you're playing and obtained it with to reinforce the value in playing that character (and not just shipping items off to crafting alts). People still have crafting alts, of course, and some choose to play them a little just to seek out the motes/spirits, and that's ok. What we don't want is to encourage the notion that you can just play one character and keep a cadre of alts that ensure you have everything you'll ever need. Working with others to achieve great things is by and large the overarching point of these kinds of games.

All that said we have tended to remove the soulbinding of these types of crafting materials as the expansion that introduced them draws to an end.


tl;dr

Its Blizzards way of penalizing you for playing multiple characters.

Realistically that is all it can be. I mean, soul binding in general on items besides what you equip is just dumb from the get go. You want to open up interaction between people by making the things needed for worthwhile crafting not trade-able? What sense does that make? I don't really bother with LW, tailoring, and BSing in game because I should be able to have items made by other people and they simply aren't worth the effort to level to me. But with this terribly flawed system I have to basically hope and pray to find someone with the BoP items to craft the item and also hope they can make the item and also hope they don't overcharge me for the BoP mats. All in the meantime I have a stack of them rotting away in my bank. Yep, great idea Blizzard. And you wonder why your subscriber numbers are steadily dropping....

Check my account, I am torn ATM between cancelling my sub or not. I don't think I have even logged 10 hours in game in the past like month and a half to 2 months because of idiocy like this.
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90 Worgen Hunter
12650
The reason they didn't make spirits/motes BOA or boe...because they were jerks about it that's why. There's no reason to make the primary craft item bop other than to slow gearing and as slow as they made gearing at the start of this expansion there was no excuse.

Hate bound craft mats anyway, making it one that had to stack and came from kills instead of from dungeons was just flat mean to healers.
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90 Orc Hunter
13715
The nest result is that I either spend a lot of time grinding mobs on characters I don't enjoy playing.

Or buy everything off the AH.

I don't like that design policy and don't think it's good for the game.
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90 Human Priest
19350
As a guild, we recently transferred off of a dead server (Lightninghoof). On a server with a dead economy, you needed to have alts to be self reliant for everything that you need (or have guildmates who could do it for you). People didn't craft and put on AH because it probably wouldn't sell. People didn't really sit in trade to advertise that they could craft because trade was mostly non-trade rubbish.

In Wrath, I leveled a dk (engineer) to get the elemental ingredients to make my frost resist. I figured that it would be faster to level a gnome (engineering racial) dk and engineering than to kill stuff on my healing priest.

After the server transfer, I'm missing professions again. Sigh. Level more alts. Even with a functioning AH, which is still novel to me, there is something nice about making stuff for yourself.
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90 Goblin Warlock
9265
05/10/2013 02:19 PMPosted by Bashiok
Most people don't keep tons of alts geared up for end-game, but quite a few do have alts that are there to help 'feed' their one or two main characters. Which is where the binding comes in. You're playing on one character, getting motes/spirits, and wanting to transfer those to alts to make stuff, which then feeds back to your main in either the items made, or the gold from selling them.


People still have crafting alts, of course, and some choose to play them a little just to seek out the motes/spirits, and that's ok. What we don't want is to encourage the notion that you can just play one character and keep a cadre of alts that ensure you have everything you'll ever need. Working with others to achieve great things is by and large the overarching point of these kinds of games


You speak of interaction with other people and say its bad when i can do everything by myself... Ok, i see you point here.. we are playing a game that is by definition a social activity... so yes, we must be more encouraged to be out there in the world, meeting other people and building this comunity inside our realms etc.. thats a very nice goal and i apreciate it. however i fail on understand how motes/spirits of harmony fit in the scene. we have some BoP items that can only be done by certain professions and are useless to any other crafting skills, whitch fills very well the role of limiting the amount of stuff we can do with our toons in a given time span(Lighting Steel Ingot, Imperal Silk and the likes of those).. making those materials teaches me how to make a lot of pvp gear to fill my main's purse or even equip a fresh alt and ease the pain on starting a pvp toon... and guess what? i dont even need to play my crafters to do it.... just log in, craft, send, log out and profit... however, i cant make a new weapon with my BS because i barely play it outside BGs and i can't get motes or anything from looting dead players corpses... i won't even buy those motes with honor until honor becomes useless to me, whitch means i have to make that BS my main toon in order to provide any alts of mine with a shortcut in the gearing progress.. making it a reeeal pain to provide anything but a crap pvp set to my comunity (you know you just cant far 3-6 spirits of harmony just by doing a set of daily quests from any quest hub in the game). Some professions have more meaning than others to the comunity... and that is a realy bad thing that gets even worse as new content arrives... you guys must fix that...

The problem is you (Blizzard) worry too much with people having alts and stuff... i do love this game and i do love the feeling of knowing every single class i can... i dont like the idea of having to chose betwen a good main or a lot of bad alts... i want to have good characters to play with them whenever i want.. so, before i go too far off-topic here goes my sugestion... you should either increase this kind of materials drop chance while keeping them BoP, or you make them BoA/BoE, keeping the drop chances... as for the future, you should think of a whay to prevent us from feeding our own crafters whith our own crafted trading goods... maybe the same whay we cant place a bid on auctions created by characters of the same acc... something in that line..(auction work orders could fill that role) but only for crafted stuff... leting me do as i please with any goods i loot with the "wrong" toon...
thanks for the minutes and sorry for my poor english skills^^ also sorry if this got confusing... i hadn't the time to think on how to further organize my thoughts...
peace!
Edited by Fizzlle on 5/10/2013 10:11 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14800
BoA Imperial Silk please <3
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90 Gnome Mage
14010
Having gathering professions on your main seems like a stupid idea.

Just because people want to play alts doesn't mean that game developers should be making things easier to cater to you. A lot of people got used to this in wotlk and cataclysm because gearing up was so easy, but that's not the way it should be, and I'm glad they made that change.

If you need something on another character, then play that character, it's really that simple.


What? Are you even having the same conversation as the rest of us?
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