Question.. Will it receive a LOGICAL answer?

50 Blood Elf Monk
9555
I think making the spirits and motes BoA is a good idea. My DK has only gathering professions and has stacks of these things. My other toons could really use them.

Eventually, I'm sure they will be. We went through this with Chaos Orbs as well.
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Mage
14010
The nest result is that I either spend a lot of time grinding mobs on characters I don't enjoy playing.

Or buy everything off the AH.

I don't like that design policy and don't think it's good for the game.


Agree.
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Mage
14010
I think making the spirits and motes BoA is a good idea. My DK has only gathering professions and has stacks of these things. My other toons could really use them.

Eventually, I'm sure they will be. We went through this with Chaos Orbs as well.


Yeah, my pally is a skinner / herbalist and gets tons with no use for them. My hunter, that I play a lot, has inscription and alchemy and gets virtually none.
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
12125
I think making the spirits and motes BoA is a good idea. My DK has only gathering professions and has stacks of these things. My other toons could really use them.

Eventually, I'm sure they will be. We went through this with Chaos Orbs as well.


Yeah, my pally is a skinner / herbalist and gets tons with no use for them. My hunter, that I play a lot, has inscription and alchemy and gets virtually none.


You're not supposed to have 2x gathering professions, ya dummy. lol. It's a choice you as a player make, and it's a choice you as a player have to live with.
Edited by Elsepth on 5/10/2013 11:12 PM PDT
Reply Quote
All that said we have tended to remove the soulbinding of these types of crafting materials as the expansion that introduced them draws to an end.


Yeah, so late in the expansion that the crafted items they're used for aren't even worth it anymore.

Go ahead and unbind those Spirits in 5.4, I'm sure everyone wants those 476 items when LFR is dropping something like 525 and the expansion is already heading for a close.
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Mage
14010
You're not supposed to have 2x gathering professions, ya dummy. lol. It's a choice you as a player make, and it's a choice you as a player have to live with.


Where in the game does it say this? Far too late now... been like that for over 3 years now and they are maxed out.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
8785
I don't see why there cant be a middle ground.

Sort of like an NPC "Crafting currency" , where you trade in chaos orbs, frozen orbs, dragon scales, or whatever for another form of resource? There are many benefits if this was possible.

Firstly, it would provide a way for a players alts to still find things that would have an impact on their endgame as they leveled up.

Next, you wouldn't have to farm just one thing, there would be multiple sources.

Lastly, you would have an over abundant places to farm, so crowding might not be as much of an issue.

And im not taling 1 for 1 swaps here, or even things in the last 2 expansions. Im saying let people turn in stuff from vanilla if they wanted to. Say, 5 frozen orbs for 1 mote for example, or whatever the people who are good at economics and math could figure out would be best.

The only downside that I can think of, is that some of these might become another form of currency that people would use to replace gold, but im sure theres a way to fix that too.

I think people just want a way to collectively combine their playtime efforts across many characters on one account. Which isn't a bad thing or unreasonable. Its just a matter of how to implement such a thing. Personally I think a Crafting Resource Exchange might be best, or at least a viable option.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Mage
9675
We like that people enjoy having alts. It's been a personal hobby of mine to continually level characters, and it's of course something a lot of people do. However, in some ways it works against some game systems that are intended to be a part of the MMO experience. Professions are one such system.

The intent with professions is that you can only have two, and for all the other professions you don't have you have to work with others within the game to get what you need. Say you're a blacksmith, and you can make an item another player or even that player's profession needs, and that interplay creates interpersonal interactions and even those small interactions feed into the larger social experience. Over the years a number of things have changed and lessened those interactions based around professions, but probably none more impactful than alts. With good intentions to help people catch up to the end-game, it of course allows for people to have more alts with more professions, which in turn reduces reliance on others and shrinks the reasons you have to interact with others.

Most people don't keep tons of alts geared up for end-game, but quite a few do have alts that are there to help 'feed' their one or two main characters. Which is where the binding comes in. You're playing on one character, getting motes/spirits, and wanting to transfer those to alts to make stuff, which then feeds back to your main in either the items made, or the gold from selling them. That's totally understandable, but really fundamentally goes against the intent of profession limits. It can also lessen the personal value of playing and connecting with a character. When you have everything, your personal connection to any one of those things is diluted, and you naturally care a little less about each.

I understand that may be a hard sell because it's a limitation and not letting people do whatever they want, but it's at least logical. I think it is, anyway. :) Maybe one solution is we could say you can only have two professions per Battle.net account! And really strong arm people into it, but of course that'd be a pretty negative change in taking so much away. Instead saying here's an item that we really want you to earn and use on the character you're playing and obtained it with to reinforce the value in playing that character (and not just shipping items off to crafting alts). People still have crafting alts, of course, and some choose to play them a little just to seek out the motes/spirits, and that's ok. What we don't want is to encourage the notion that you can just play one character and keep a cadre of alts that ensure you have everything you'll ever need. Working with others to achieve great things is by and large the overarching point of these kinds of games.

All that said we have tended to remove the soulbinding of these types of crafting materials as the expansion that introduced them draws to an end.


If you ever do require 2 profs per account, keep in mind that the devs are gonna have to make sure every profession is equal in terms of moneymaking ability. Otherwise youre gonna see a whole bunch of people abandon some profs because only 2 or 3 make money all the way through an expansion, tailoring for bags and enchanting for example.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
9105
05/10/2013 02:19 PMPosted by Bashiok
What we don't want is to encourage the notion that you can just play one character and keep a cadre of alts that ensure you have everything you'll ever need. Working with others to achieve great things is by and large the overarching point of these kinds of games.


I am one who opposes the way professions have gone lately. But I get this argument, and I see your predicament. Self reliance in an MMO is somewhat of an oxymoron. Yet how can you make people rely on others without taking away something they've had for potentially 9 years?

The problem with harmonies is they don't encourage social interaction being bound. They encourage people to use them on themselves. If they have extra? Sure, make something for a guidy or the AH. But that means you have to specifically be farming them for that purpose. But wait--you have 10 alts that could use some nice gear when they hit 90! This is the player's predicament.

With haunting spirits and the like, the problem is similar. Raid teams will use them for themselves first (obviously) and then alts if they have extra. If they have lost of extra, they will post them on the AH, sometimes for stupid amounts. Not every raider is savvy to the fact that if something doesn't sell, you must lower the price. Not every raider wants to let the mats "trickle down" (hint: doesn't work in life, doesn't work in game). Not every server has sufficient raids generating these mats. Not every raid team generates surplus spirits.

So what you can get is a perfect storm of low pop, low raid servers where these mats, and therefore the gear that requires them, essentially don't exist. As such, why do I have a half dozen or so of these uncraftables in my repertoire? That's like giving someone in the desert a fishing pole--sure it works, but there's nothing to catch.

Let's hearken back to Wrath for a moment (of sanity). ICC. If you raided 10 normal only, I could make you BiS bracers, for you. You would never get better without doing a higher raid. I could make other items that were great for fresh 80s that would let them jump into raiding a tier behind. I made and sold dozens of these. Now? I make nothing. I sell nothing. Nothing for fresh 90s is worth the mats I need for my own alts (or sell below cost--why bother), and nothing is obtainable for any progression gear for myself. We've gone from a really elegant crafting system in Wrath where people actually sought out crafted gear on a regular basis--INCREASING SOCIAL INTERACTION--to a dead end system where fresh 90s have to go through the same progression curve as mains to qualify for LFR by doing dailies--MINIMIZING SOCIAL INTERACTION.

I appreciate that you guys see the problem, but this expac's solution actually makes the problem worse. If you want to make crafting matter, make it increase interaction, you have to make it relevant. Not just within each raid team. Relevant to everyone. At every tier.

Now as far as the self reliance issue. You can't take away people's trades. That's incredibly punitive. Having mats bound is counterproductive. Having mats gotten at the discretion of raid teams can be counterproductive. Giving people patterns they can't use is irksome.

Solutions:

1) Go back to having spirit/harmony mats be obtained with points and make them BoE. Their scarcity through inaccessibility makes the interaction problem worse and makes crafting a joke.

2) Go back to having crafters be able to make gear that is relevant at every tier. My fresh 90 should be able to walk into the AH and then que for LFR. Why do I have to do dailies for a week on my alt that I've already done on my main? No one is leveling alts so they can do dailies with them. They've done the work on their mains. Alts are play time.

3) Work monopolies into each trade. Actual monopolies, not temporary ones. Like, you can learn X patterns per tier, period. So I get my hands on a nice bracer pattern, and that's what I can make. Go a step further and tailor it to my spec wherever possible. So I can make AGI leather bracers this tier, while another feral can make AGI leather boots. If I'm a mage scribe, then I can learn all the mage glyphs, but no others. I can learn the caster trinket, but no others. Virtually eliminates the alt-ability, and makes individual crafters relevant in the crafting market.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Warlock
16550
IMO, motes/spirits of Harmony being BoP wouldn't be as bad if they actually benefited all professions equally.

I'm a tailor/engineer on my main and I feel like a jackass because my alt who is an alchemist could make major bank with Spirits of Harmony by crafting Living Steel. Meanwhile, I can't really do anything with them aside from make extra silk (which is BoP itself) and the items I can make with imperial silk (without needing haunting spirits or blood spirits) aren't worth very much anyway.

I think the dev team might need mandatory psych evals, because the team as a whole is most certainly bipolar. How else can they claim to want to foster social interaction via professions and yet also introduce the abominations known as LFR and LFD so players can avoid joining a guild and/or pugging responsibly.

The devs act as enablers for the kind of attitudes and play-styles they claim to be against. I keep hearing from the devs that LFR and LFD are hugely popular. Meanwhile the game continues to lose subs, so maybe they should consider that something being popular doesn't mean it's right and vice versa.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
18295
The intent with professions is that you can only have two, and for all the other professions you don't have you have to work with others within the game to get what you need. Say you're a blacksmith, and you can make an item another player or even that player's profession needs, and that interplay creates interpersonal interactions and even those small interactions feed into the larger social experience. Over the years a number of things have changed and lessened those interactions based around professions, but probably none more impactful than alts. With good intentions to help people catch up to the end-game, it of course allows for people to have more alts with more professions, which in turn reduces reliance on others and shrinks the reasons you have to interact with others.


The profession limit is arbitrary and useless. All you did was make it so I'd have to level multiple alts instead of having one main toon being a professional mastermind while controlling most of the AH's material flow. I get it though, I really do, you want players to interact because its an "MMO". But really, how do you expect players to make large quantities of gold to buy vanity items that are already priced to ridiculous levels if we have to keep spending gold in this constant cycle whenever we need something else that some player has? That's the purest and most fundamental reason of making alts: To intake more money than we spend to net a profit gain. I know you want us to talk to people and create this sense of community with interactions, but in all reality, not everyone wants to constantly put up with people when they need something.

Most people don't keep tons of alts geared up for end-game, but quite a few do have alts that are there to help 'feed' their one or two main characters. Which is where the binding comes in. You're playing on one character, getting motes/spirits, and wanting to transfer those to alts to make stuff, which then feeds back to your main in either the items made, or the gold from selling them. That's totally understandable, but really fundamentally goes against the intent of profession limits. It can also lessen the personal value of playing and connecting with a character. When you have everything, your personal connection to any one of those things is diluted, and you naturally care a little less about each.


I understand you want us to connect with a character and grow with it, but with professions? its a very boring aspect of the game that only serves to get you two things: Gold and PvE/PvP perks to better your character. Its a huge monetary sink that is used to give you more gold later. That is, unless you level a gathering profession with said crafting profession that matches it, then it won't be so expensive, but who really does that when you want to maximize your character as a hardcore raider/PvPer with double crafting profs? If every character could learn every profession, sure, that aspect of the game would become bland and morph into some blob of time investment that everyone would have to do. So I will agree with you there, but in all reality, growing fond of a character comes from enjoying what makes that class tick and how you play it, and having every profession possible definitely can never take that away. When it comes to connecting and bonding with my alts, I could care less about them.

I understand that may be a hard sell because it's a limitation and not letting people do whatever they want, but it's at least logical. I think it is, anyway. :) Maybe one solution is we could say you can only have two professions per Battle.net account! And really strong arm people into it, but of course that'd be a pretty negative change in taking so much away. Instead saying here's an item that we really want you to earn and use on the character you're playing and obtained it with to reinforce the value in playing that character (and not just shipping items off to crafting alts). People still have crafting alts, of course, and some choose to play them a little just to seek out the motes/spirits, and that's ok. What we don't want is to encourage the notion that you can just play one character and keep a cadre of alts that ensure you have everything you'll ever need. Working with others to achieve great things is by and large the overarching point of these kinds of games.


Now, having said all of that, I see why spirits are BoP. But that won't stop dedicated players, now will it? Like for myself, I have 9 alts at 90, AND they are all exalted with Tillers. You know that means? A truckload of mats that I bring in everyday on all 9 toons for virtually little to no time investment (Besides the time taken to lvl each toon and get the rep up). That 'illusion' of limitation you made to stop players from 'feeding' their mains is just that, an illusion, and can be easily bypassed. Whether or not you encourage us playing one main toon (Even if that's what we want to do) and having alts to feed that toon, we will still do it. Working with other players to achieve great things is, and should be, left in the PvE and PvP realms of play. To this day, I will never understand why you guys think its so epic for me to sit in trade all day looking for some random person with a pattern I need, only to have to overly pay them to make the pattern with my mats.

I guess long story short (or TL;DR) is players want all of the professions available because it allows us to be self-sufficient and make more gold to afford things we want. If we only want to play one main toon and 'feed' it via alts, then that is our reward for putting in the time investment for leveling alts. In a real world analysis, do you think any major monopoly made it to where they are because they collaborated with others on even footing? At first, maybe. But over time, they grow and start to become self-sufficient, thus allowing to the reap 100% pure profit on everything they sell. Its the way of business, and its what I did to make my millions and millions of gold in this game. You guys can hide behind the shield of "We want players to work together to make stuff with professions" all you want, but all I see with this post is that you want to slow down the rate at which players obtain gold by forcing the medium of equivalent exchange as much as possible between other players.
Edited by Myrianda on 5/11/2013 12:13 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
16525
All that said we have tended to remove the soulbinding of these types of crafting materials as the expansion that introduced them draws to an end.


BTW, Dreamcloth says hello. And still a one-week cooldown to make with farmable mats. Good luck finding someone able to craft you a Luxurious Gem Bag (largest bag available despite being from previous Xpac).
Edited by Adrim on 5/11/2013 12:07 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Mage
14010
Let's hearken back to Wrath for a moment (of sanity). ICC. If you raided 10 normal only, I could make you BiS bracers, for you. You would never get better without doing a higher raid. I could make other items that were great for fresh 80s that would let them jump into raiding a tier behind. I made and sold dozens of these. Now? I make nothing. I sell nothing. Nothing for fresh 90s is worth the mats I need for my own alts (or sell below cost--why bother), and nothing is obtainable for any progression gear for myself. We've gone from a really elegant crafting system in Wrath where people actually sought out crafted gear on a regular basis--INCREASING SOCIAL INTERACTION--to a dead end system where fresh 90s have to go through the same progression curve as mains to qualify for LFR by doing dailies--MINIMIZING SOCIAL INTERACTION.


Exactly!
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Mage
14010
I think the dev team might need mandatory psych evals, because the team as a whole is most certainly bipolar. How else can they claim to want to foster social interaction via professions and yet also introduce the abominations known as LFR and LFD so players can avoid joining a guild and/or pugging responsibly. The devs act as enablers for the kind of attitudes and play-styles they claim to be against. I keep hearing from the devs that LFR and LFD are hugely popular. Meanwhile the game continues to lose subs, so maybe they should consider that something being popular doesn't mean it's right and vice versa.


Oh my, you've noticed that too. I started believing that they spoke out of both sides of their mouth at once over a year ago. "blue man speak with forked tongue" Possibly just because they've reached a size where everything is done by committee /sigh
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
18295
I think the dev team might need mandatory psych evals, because the team as a whole is most certainly bipolar. How else can they claim to want to foster social interaction via professions and yet also introduce the abominations known as LFR and LFD so players can avoid joining a guild and/or pugging responsibly.

The devs act as enablers for the kind of attitudes and play-styles they claim to be against. I keep hearing from the devs that LFR and LFD are hugely popular. Meanwhile the game continues to lose subs, so maybe they should consider that something being popular doesn't mean it's right and vice versa.


This is also very true. I'm getting tired of this 'we want players to do x, but we are enabling you to go with route y' where we seem to not fit into their perfect world for how this game should be.

I miss WotLK and BC. Everything these days is either too confusing or overly convoluted with rollarcoaster buffs/nerfs where nobody can figure out what the hell is going on anymore. :(
Reply Quote
50 Gnome Warlock
765
I understand that may be a hard sell because it's a limitation and not letting people do whatever they want, but it's at least logical.


It's logical in that it does give rational incite into why the developers did it, but what those of us who don't like this design (of which I'm one, shocking right?) don't find logical is the argument that it somehow increases interactions between players enough to justify it. At what threshold do the developers see "increasing player interaction" as being too harsh on the players for very little benefit to the game as a whole.

Using the spirits as an example, nothing has really changed for me. I don't interact with players more than I did in the past because everything I need I get off of a faceless, nameless UI protocal via the auction house. The only item that uses SoH that I can't make myself are leg kits, and when they sell for only a pittance more than the base hide it's easier for me to just buy them than to go through the headache of finding someone with spirits willing to make one.

If the goal is to genuinely try to encourage people to interact directly with on another to get full benefit out of their professions, then they need to go back to the Classic crafting system of needing miscellaneous parts to be made by other crafting professions. Buckles, dyes, enchanting dusts, cured hides, leather, special bars, and on and on were all required to produce the high end raid/near raid quality items. Right now only two professions really heavily rely on a third in order to get stuff done, and that's Blacksmithing and Engineering. The rest are either completely independent of anything else, or are fully self-sufficient with just their related gathering profession. So if their goal is to change that, to make people more reliant on each other to spur "interpersonal contant", then they need to shift gears because their current model of trying to make it happen? Doesn't.
Reply Quote
50 Gnome Warlock
765
3) Work monopolies into each trade. Actual monopolies, not temporary ones. Like, you can learn X patterns per tier, period. So I get my hands on a nice bracer pattern, and that's what I can make. Go a step further and tailor it to my spec wherever possible. So I can make AGI leather bracers this tier, while another feral can make AGI leather boots. If I'm a mage scribe, then I can learn all the mage glyphs, but no others. I can learn the caster trinket, but no others. Virtually eliminates the alt-ability, and makes individual crafters relevant in the crafting market.


They can't do this because many servers are at a breaking point as it is. Making it so that it is literally impossible to get a particular item made because there isn't a player/profession combination on the entire server capable of producing it would do a lot more than just kill alt production's viability.
Reply Quote
50 Gnome Warlock
765
Yeah, my pally is a skinner / herbalist and gets tons with no use for them. My hunter, that I play a lot, has inscription and alchemy and gets virtually none.


Transmute mastery with SoH = lots of living steel to sell.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
We like that people enjoy having alts. It's been a personal hobby of mine to continually level characters, and it's of course something a lot of people do. However, in some ways it works against some game systems that are intended to be a part of the MMO experience. Professions are one such system.

The intent with professions is that you can only have two, and for all the other professions you don't have you have to work with others within the game to get what you need. Say you're a blacksmith, and you can make an item another player or even that player's profession needs, and that interplay creates interpersonal interactions and even those small interactions feed into the larger social experience. Over the years a number of things have changed and lessened those interactions based around professions, but probably none more impactful than alts. With good intentions to help people catch up to the end-game, it of course allows for people to have more alts with more professions, which in turn reduces reliance on others and shrinks the reasons you have to interact with others.

Most people don't keep tons of alts geared up for end-game, but quite a few do have alts that are there to help 'feed' their one or two main characters. Which is where the binding comes in. You're playing on one character, getting motes/spirits, and wanting to transfer those to alts to make stuff, which then feeds back to your main in either the items made, or the gold from selling them. That's totally understandable, but really fundamentally goes against the intent of profession limits. It can also lessen the personal value of playing and connecting with a character. When you have everything, your personal connection to any one of those things is diluted, and you naturally care a little less about each.

I understand that may be a hard sell because it's a limitation and not letting people do whatever they want, but it's at least logical. I think it is, anyway. :) Maybe one solution is we could say you can only have two professions per Battle.net account! And really strong arm people into it, but of course that'd be a pretty negative change in taking so much away. Instead saying here's an item that we really want you to earn and use on the character you're playing and obtained it with to reinforce the value in playing that character (and not just shipping items off to crafting alts). People still have crafting alts, of course, and some choose to play them a little just to seek out the motes/spirits, and that's ok. What we don't want is to encourage the notion that you can just play one character and keep a cadre of alts that ensure you have everything you'll ever need. Working with others to achieve great things is by and large the overarching point of these kinds of games.

All that said we have tended to remove the soulbinding of these types of crafting materials as the expansion that introduced them draws to an end.


Your logic completely fails here, though. If having those things bound to us is supposed to cause these interactions with other players...it's not working. Because having those things bound to us makes it harder to HAVE those interactions. I can't trade my motes/Spirits to another player to get something made ,and there's no easy and quick way for them to get the Spirits themselves.

Sorry, Bashiok, but what you said makes no damn sense. :-\
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]