HoT Ideas (vs. Shields)

90 Worgen Druid
7845
I have two possible ideas to help HoTs from being overshadowed by absorption shields. I realize neither of them would completely resolve the issue, but it could help mitigate the problem somewhat.

1. Pause HoTs: Every time a HoT ticks, if the target is at 100% life, then instead of healing the target, pause the HoT for up to 15 seconds. It would continue to tick as normal checking to see if the target needs healing, and if so, would unpause and resume healing. The effect can continually pause/unpause for the normal duration of the HoT or until the pause timer (for the entire effect, not each time it starts) exceeds 15 seconds. It would also automatically unpause upon taking damage.

2. Living Seed: Every time a HoT ticks, if the target is at 100% life, add the healing that would have be done to the Living Seed effect on the player. Thus, if they're taking no damage, it will build up a Living Seed that will trigger when they take damage.

Both of these ideas would reduce overhealing and allow HoTs a few ticks every time the target takes damage if they were previously full. Yes, absorption shields will still get to prevent damage first, but at least, HoTs will get a few opportunities to heal the target immediately before the Paladin/Priest can if the damage exceeds the absorption shield. This also could potentially give Druids more burst raid wide healing, as they can blanket the raid before heavy damage and the HoTs will be paused or build up a Living Seed until the raid takes damage, then suddenly, the HoTs unpause or everyone's Living Seed triggers.
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62 Worgen Death Knight
320
I like the living seed idea. Could last for a set amount of time and if not triggered, return a portion of mana to the caster.
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90 Tauren Druid
0
Too easily abused. Option 1, with pausing hot ticks...think about resto druid T15 4pc and then there's the fact that you could actually blanket an ENTIRE 10 man raid given that mechanic you present.
Rejuv blanketing is balanced around the GCD and duration in trying to limit the amount of people with active rejuvs. Give it a pause function and you would easily have an entire raid blanketed; Coupled with T15 4pc, and that just becomes insane.
Your option 2 would allow me to build up infinite LS heals on any given target that does not take frequent damage, or a massive 33bazillion LS pre-pull, if the tank just waits before pull...See what I mean?

HoT's are good and don't need any major reworking.

Absorbs need to be nerfed; DA and IH. PW:S is fine.

Easily blanketed absorbs should be incredibly mana intensive. They're not.

The throughput they provide should come at a cost of sustainability. Currently the only cost they have is that of other healers getting pushed aside.
Edited by Tonydanza on 5/9/2013 1:27 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
7845
I would be interesting in feedback on how it could be abused.

Based upon the PTR 5.3 patch notes and tweets from Ghostcrawler, the only changes we're going to see with Illuminated Healing is a 2% nerf in 5.3 and possibly a change to how Eternal Flame works in 5.4. The latter could have the biggest impact, depending on what they do.

Is Divine Aegis or Spirit Shell the problem with Disciple Priest? I would think the latter, since they can't control the former (happens on crit). There's been no indication that Spirit Shell will be changing.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
Based upon the PTR 5.3 patch notes and tweets from Ghostcrawler, the only changes we're going to see with Illuminated Healing is a 2% nerf in 5.3 and possibly a change to how Eternal Flame works in 5.4. The latter could have the biggest impact, depending on what they do.


16.6 percent nerf due to scaling also being nerfed this being confirmed on the PTR. Now if that has changed I have no idea.
Edited by Marathel on 5/9/2013 1:37 PM PDT
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
16485
This is beyond foolish. HoTs are fine and absorbs just need to continue to be toned down.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12820
Another one of these threads...

Absorb utility typically boils down to having more health than you normally would. Outside of this their only utility comes from the ability to safety net people in danger of dying, which any potent instant does just as well. The opportunity cost of having access to this capability should consist of lower pure "healing" capabilities. If this exists absorbs aren't a problem, as absorption healers are capable of "absorbing" damage but less capable of healing it after it's happened compared to non-absorption healers.

In addition to this opportunity cost, absorbs should not be so powerful such that they can trivialize mechanics. The situation should play out such that absorb abilities remove part of a threatening mechanic but not all of it. Part of the issue here is an absorption healer needs to have the proper balance of absorbs vs heals (yes, the implication is absorb capable healers should do much less absorbs than healing, this preserves the utility of absorbs without allowing them to trivialize certain mechanics). Nobody should be capable of removing 50-80% of a threatening mechanic from the table from absorbs alone, leaving 20-50% of it left to be healed. It should be more like.... 20-30% of the threatening mechanic getting removed from the table, leaving 70-80% of it to be healed after the hit.

I think Hpallies would probably fit into the first paragraph if there is a problem there, but I don't feel qualified enough on Hpallies to state that as fact. If Disc is a problem it's certainly because of the second paragraph. It's not a problem with pure throughput healers though, and I fail to see why they would need the adjustments (to be fair it'd be very Blizzard like to do that though :)).
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90 Night Elf Druid
17840
I don't think Hpallies should have an absorb...

Keep Disc as an absorb healer-but get rid of DA & change spirit shell to a 2 min CD but then buff it up a bit. Frankly the 1 minute thing is way too often. PW:S is fine since they get weakened soul and cannot be spammed on people.
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90 Night Elf Druid
5475
I think they should instead change all absorbs to absorb only up to 50% of incoming damage, the rest remains as a shield for future hits. The total amount absorbed before the shield drops would be the same.

Absorbs + HoTs work together better, the shield stabilizes incoming damage longer, ticks (and smart heals, if the whole raid is absorb blanketed) don't go to waste, and non-absorb healers don't get crushed on meters in low damage phases (for people who care about meters, which doesn't include me, but some people clearly do).

Blood Shield could be excepted since it's not a healer ability, but I think DKs might actually benefit from having it included because it would make them a bit less spiky.

Also, Druids now have a mechanic that charges up from some overheal; IMO shamans should get one too, from Healing Rain and/or Riptide overheal. I propose:

Rising Tide
25% of the amount overhealed by your Healing Rain and 50% of the amount overhealed by your Riptide is added to a stacking buff that caps at 200% of your maximum health. Probably should be cleared at the beginning of a raid boss encounter, but in dungeons I think it would be OK to let you build it up on trash and use it on the boss; dungeon bosses aren't supposed to be that hard anyway.

Tidal Surge
While active, your Healing Wave, Greater Healing Wave, Healing Surge, and Chain Heal are increased by up to 25%, but the additional amount is deducted from your Rising Tide. You cannot gain any additional Rising Tide charge while Tidal Surge is active. Automatically deactivates when your tide reaches 0, or you can deactivate it manually. Off GCD, CD something like 2 seconds (just enough to keep you from accidentally toggling it back off because you hit the button twice). Button highlights when you are at high tide, but you wouldn't necessarily want to use it just because, depending on the encounter.

Healing Tsunami
Consumes all of your current tide charge to divide it as healing equally among all party and raid members within 40 yards. Instant cast, 1 min CD (or maybe 1.5-2 if that's too good, but it shouldn't be as long as Tranq/HTT, the point is for it to be limited mainly by charging). Since the max charge is 200% of your max HP, it would do at most 20%/8% of your HP per target if you hit a whole raid, before accounting for mastery, but that's still pretty decent, considering the charge comes from overheal anyway.

Fits the water motif and shaman's overall design as a clinch healer. What do you think? For all the water and tide spell names shaman have, they've never (AFAIK) had *actual* tides that ebb and flow during an encounter. I think it would be kind of neat.

Of course, if it's OP as written, they could tone down some of the numbers -- the charge rate and cap would be the obvious places to start. But a lot of people seem to think shaman are kind of hurting atm, so it might not be bad to have it be pretty awesome for a patch or so, and then revisit it if necessary.
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90 Tauren Druid
18655
How about you actually do content that matters before you begin to assume you know how to fix or tweak things.

How about you actually address his comments, rather than just armory troll?
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90 Night Elf Priest
5045


How about you actually address his comments, rather than just armory troll?


Address what a idea because he only raids looking for retards and he can't flex his epeen because not enough damage goes out? When you raid normal content two healing hots are wonderful.

There is no reason to adjust mechanics to suit lfrs means. Besides on H tortos or in LFR in general his ideas would not fix absorbs nor would it give him anymore healing. Absorbs are always out with a holy pally and a disc priest in raid. H tortos everyone should already have a absorb leaving him even more gimped.

So yes raid meaningful content and then perhaps you will understand hots are fine.


His armory shows the FoS for Ahead of the Curve as of 3 days ago. So while he isn't raiding on this character at that level, we can in no way demerit his outlook by the context that he ins't "raiding at current content level"

Perhaps not on his druid, but on a main, yes.
Edited by Naérdriel on 5/10/2013 9:03 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
10765
Perhaps not on his druid, but on a main, yes.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/Korgath/Niomar/advanced

^^ his disc priest
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90 Night Elf Priest
7775
16.6 percent nerf due to scaling also being nerfed this being confirmed on the PTR. Now if that has changed I have no idea.


Yeah, I did find a reference on elitistjerks where it was actually just a nerf to the scaling (1.5 > 1.25), so it will be more than just 2%. The Holy Paladin I raid with has about 27% mastery, so his will be reduced to about 22%.

I think Hpallies would probably fit into the first paragraph if there is a problem there, but I don't feel qualified enough on Hpallies to state that as fact. If Disc is a problem it's certainly because of the second paragraph. It's not a problem with pure throughput healers though, and I fail to see why they would need the adjustments (to be fair it'd be very Blizzard like to do that though :)).


I wouldn't really say that Holy Paladins or Discipline Priests have problems with throughput and they're definitely not trading it off for absorptions. At least for Discipline Priests, I know you can completely forego Spirit Shell and Power Word: Shield and still maintain a comparable HPS to other healers. Overall, I don't disagree with your point about how absorption shields should be designed, but in reality, I don't think that is the case except for heroic modes. In addition, even if an absorption only provided about a 50% buffer to incoming damage (and thus the other 50% could be healed), the latter 50% is also being healed by the absorption healers, so it's not just a matter of leaving the remaining damage for the other healers so that they have an opportunity too.

So yes raid meaningful content and then perhaps you will understand hots are fine.


Yep, my main is a Discipline Priest and I've raided 12/12 ToT normal. I think I'm more than qualified to make suggestions based upon my experience. But as others have noted, it's irrelevant. Address the ideas, not the person.
Edited by Niomar on 5/10/2013 10:16 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
12820
I wouldn't really say that Holy Paladins or Discipline Priests have problems with throughput and they're definitely not trading it off for absorptions. At least for Discipline Priests, I know you can completely forego Spirit Shell and Power Word: Shield and still maintain a comparable HPS to other healers. Overall, I don't disagree with your point about how absorption shields should be designed, but in reality, I don't think that is the case except for heroic modes. In addition, even if an absorption only provided about a 50% buffer to incoming damage (and thus the other 50% could be healed), the latter 50% is also being healed by the absorption healers, so it's not just a matter of leaving the remaining damage for the other healers so that they have an opportunity too.


Take a Discipline Priest and ask them to output their maximum possible throughput for an extended period of time (two excellent examples of where this happens is the last phase of Iron Qon and Rampage on Magaera). Now take any other healer and ask them to perform the same task. I can guarantee the Discipline Priest is going to lag well behind the other healing specs (they might spike initially but once the shields are down their healing goes down the !@#$ter).

This is what I mean when I say "opportunity cost". The only way absorption can be balanced against pure throughput from this standpoint is if the pure throughput of the absorption spec is lower than that of the pure throughput spec (obviously....). Meaning, the absorption spec can stop some of the damage preemptively, but once the shields are down they end up lagging behind. In terms of Discipline this is the reality of the situation already.

That statement really had two parts to it though. The second point involved how much the absorption healers can preemptively remove from the top of that damage. IMO Blizzard has failed miserably at balancing these values. The percentage of this damage being preemptively removed is entirely too high. When you can remove 50-80% of such mechanics from the table only 20-50% of it needs to be healed after the fact. What you said is exactly what happens in such situations. The absorption healer mitigates this large chunk of the damage but doesn't stop healing after it has hit. This leaves very little of this damage to be healed by the throughput spec.

Consider the same situation with the same damage. But, think about what happens when the absorption spec can only stop 20-30% of the damage before it occurs. This leaves 70-80% of it needing to be healed after the fact. This means the absorption spec, with their lower healing output, doesn't suck up such a large percentage of whatever makes it past their shields. Now, the throughput healer ends up covering most of whatever makes it through because they are better at pure throughput. Yet, at the same time, those absorbs still had their utility benefit because, while they didn't stop most of the damage, they still stopped some of it.

The only alternative is to make absorption specs absolutely amazing at preemptively stopping damage but way below throughput healers for healing it. The problem there is you then have to cripple their healing output to achieve balance. This alternative ends up forcing a spec like Discipline into being a CD/mass mitigation %^-*!, but terrible at handling every other situation (to some extent the spec is already here, it's just Atonement pushes it a bit above this for a variety of reasons). This just isn't good design.
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90 Human Paladin
12960
Blizzard isn't going to go about these convoluted mess of ideas when the most simple and effective answer is right in front of their faces; nerf absorptions.

HoTs are fine. Absorbs will be fine with some tweaking, but seriously, this whole witch hunt against anything absorption-based is getting old fast.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12820
Blizzard isn't going to go about these convoluted mess of ideas when the most simple and effective answer is right in front of their faces; nerf absorptions.


IMO it'd be more accurate to say they should bring down absorb contributions on absorb capable specs and raise their healing contributions as compensation if necessary. And I say this for the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread. It allows absorption healers to retain their utility, doesn't gut their overall healing ability but prevents absorption from sucking up all of the damage in easier content.
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90 Human Paladin
12960
05/11/2013 04:02 AMPosted by Volios
Blizzard isn't going to go about these convoluted mess of ideas when the most simple and effective answer is right in front of their faces; nerf absorptions.


IMO it'd be more accurate to say they should bring down absorb contributions on absorb capable specs and raise their healing contributions as compensation if necessary. And I say this for the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread. It allows absorption healers to retain their utility, doesn't gut their overall healing ability but prevents absorption from sucking up all of the damage in easier content.


I'm fine with this as long as numbers and mechanics remain relatively balanced in the end.
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