Holinka and rogue tweets

90 Pandaren Monk
6310
I am no rogue expert by any means, only have one at lvl 60 and messed around with one on friends account, that said i was suprised to see holinka tweeting about shadowstep being better than war's, and dk's gapclosers, even though its talented, the reason i ask this is because if he DOES see it as better than them, then there is no hope for a shadowstep buff ever, i kinda feel bad for the rogue community with a pvp dev who isent familiar with mobility for rogue, what do you guys think?
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90 Undead Rogue
3900
I am no rogue expert by any means, only have one at lvl 60 and messed around with one on friends account, that said i was suprised to see holinka tweeting about shadowstep being better than war's, and dk's gapclosers, even though its talented, the reason i ask this is because if he DOES see it as better than them, then there is no hope for a shadowstep buff ever, i kinda feel bad for the rogue community with a pvp dev who isent familiar with mobility for rogue, what do you guys think?


I'd use Shadow Step if the range was increased 5 yards. BoS is just too good to pass up, because being so far away that you can't use Shadow Step makes the talent redundant.
Edited by Kommy on 5/10/2013 8:24 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
6310
I'd use Shadow Step if the range was increased 5 yards. BoS is just too good to pass up, because being so far away that you can't use Shadow Step makes the talent redundant.
im talking about the cd needing a change, wouldent u agree? just wish this dev would see the outdated mechanics having to do with this spell, mabye a 15 cd would be fair? or make shadowstep baseline and that tier u can choose to make shadowstep with less of a cd.
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90 Worgen Rogue
18765
I just wish we had something to break snares, excluding Vanish or Killing Spree.

Anyway, it's weird saying Shadowstep is better than Charge. Before you hit me with, "Different Classes are Different," I just think Charge is better because it's 'customize-able,' with talents. It would be sweet if we could have three different Shadowsteps.

As for Death Grip, not sure what to say. The DK PvP four piece looks like a lot of fun, double grips if used quick enough which sounds really powerful if people panic. And even if they're smart and save their gap opener, the DK is still beating on them for three seconds.
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90 Undead Rogue
3900
I think Shadow Step baseline with two talents to augment it, and BoS as a replacement to Shadow step would be nice.

The two augmentations being

Lowered CD

Increased Range
Edited by Kommy on 5/10/2013 8:39 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
6310
Just read a tweet from him, says he is happy with rogue changes, which means he might not even change them at all and just go with it, honestly i feel bad for rogues and am starting to wonder if this dev is paying attention to feedback.
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90 Night Elf Monk
12985
I'd agree that the functionality of base shadowstep is much better than base charge. it's instant, off the gcd, and puts you behind the target. However once you factor in that warrior charge is customizable to either stun, have charges, or be able to be used twice as much, it wins out by a long shot.

Warriors also get intervene and heroic leap. Rogues also get sprint and (ugh) vanish, which can be used as things sometimes much more important than a gap closer. (and has a much more massive cd)

Death grip isn't really comparable, but it has uses which outweigh shadowstep (you can't shadowstep an enemy fc into your team to dogpile him) and dks other gap closers are almost definitely worse than rogues'. I could see how someone would think death grip is worse (though I wouldn't agree with them)

Rogues also don't have anything at all to break roots that doesn't act as something else.
Edited by Sichel on 5/10/2013 8:46 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
6310
rogues also lack a ranged slow that dks have,(unless ST got changed changed), to add insult to injury sprint is one of the worst mobility tools atm, without breaking roots or snares, it basicly does nothing, i cant imagine how a rogue fights a frost mage.or any mage for that matter.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
I think Shadowstep would be fantastic as a 15s CD that breaks roots and snares.
Other than that, there isn't much they can do that would make me take it over Burst of Speed.

I can't wait for 5.4 now. That tweet saying they'd come back to that row(not just CnD!) made me pretty excited.
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90 Night Elf Monk
12985
how a rogue fights a frost mage.or any mage for that matter.


very carefully. even with monk mobility I have to take them carefully lest I get stuck in a root and deep bombed.

ST isn't a gap closer, and if it were, you could consider auto shot a gap opener, which you don't.

I think Shadowstep would be fantastic as a 15s CD that breaks roots and snares.
Other than that, there isn't much they can do that would make me take it over Burst of Speed.


would be sick if that entire row broke roots (or perhaps CnD can just decrease the duration, and BoS can have a cd on root breaks) They seemed to think they made BoS over the top powerful, so I don't think they'll buff it. Shadowstep down to be 15s would be the best I could ask for (besides adding/making a viable choice out of CnD's slot)
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
I wonder how balanced the tier would be. Burst of Speed might need a buff!
If they made ShS like that then for CnD-
CnD now in addition reduces the duration of roots by 50% and you cannot be slowed below 100%. Or does that sound bad?
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90 Pandaren Monk
6310
I never considerd ST a gap closer, i meant it as a ranged slow that helped CLOSE the game.
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90 Night Elf Monk
12985
CnD now in addition reduces the duration of roots by 50% and you cannot be slowed below 100%. Or does that sound bad?


there's a couple ideas. I liked Vernet's idea of adding base run speed to the rogue. ie:

Cloak and dagger now also increases the rogues' base run speed by 20% (does not stack with other effects like sprint, but does stack with swiftness) and decreases the duration of roots by 30-50%.

not knocking yours but I've always wanted druid run speed. (also obligatory smoke screen mention)

I never considerd ST a gap closer, i meant it as a ranged slow that helped CLOSE the game.


yeah...that was like its' only use.

wtb deadly throw slow baseline.
Edited by Sichel on 5/10/2013 9:18 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
there's a couple ideas. I liked Vernet's idea of adding base run speed to the rogue. ie:

Cloak and dagger now also increases the rogues' base run speed by 20% (does not stack with other effects) and decreases the duration of roots by 30-50%.

not knocking yours but I've always wanted druid run speed. (also obligatory smoke screen mention)


Ah, yah. That would be nice. It could still stack with Nightstalker too without being overpowered!
So, would that 20% increase the 115%? Or would we move at 120%?
Edited by Knocrogue on 5/10/2013 9:21 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Monk
12985
druid run speed


also I edited my original post after realizing that possible confusion.

it'd probably be a bit less than druid run speed though, tbh. unless you're in stealth with nightstalker.
Edited by Sichel on 5/10/2013 9:30 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
Oh, I see. Yah. I think that would put us to 138% and Druids move at 144%. But, still pretty good. 25% would put us at 144%. Well, very close.
Edited by Knocrogue on 5/10/2013 9:30 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Monk
12985
Oh, I see. Yah. I think that would put us to 138% and Druids move at 144%. But, still pretty good. 25% would put us at 144%. Well, very close.


it'd end up being 165% with nightstalker, and 172% if it was bumped up to 25% Even more for night elves (173% and 183%). Still worse than burst of speed but not bad for a passive that doesn't break snares.

and I don't think rogues would need to run AS fast as druids. the 138% would be fine for almost all purposes.
Edited by Sichel on 5/10/2013 9:39 AM PDT
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90 Troll Rogue
18935
So Holinka says Shadowstep is better than Warrior/DK gap closers.

How? Crimminy chim chim, how? Isn't Shadowstep twice the cd of Charge and Death Grip? Doesn't Charge stun the target and Deathgrip have a 2piece bonus to it?

Is it because Shadowstep ports you behind the target? That doesn't seem to make up for the longer cd/no stun/no interrupt tacked onto it.

Speaking from a PvP perspective, of course. I don't PvP much, but it still doesn't seem right.

PvE perspective, I'd stick with Shadowstep over anything else.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
OK, c'mon, guys. If you're gonna misrepresent and distort somebody's tweets, at least have the full story straight before you do it.

If you follow the full thread of the convo -- I tossed it up at http://wp.me/p2VaAD-rk a few days ago -- you'll see that Holinka wasn't trying to do a straight-up comparison of Shadowstep to Death Grip. He was taking Shadowstep, when used alongside other rogue tools (like Crippling Poison + Shiv), and looking at how the complete package helps ensure maximum uptime on the target when compared to other melee DPS classes/specs.

He didn't say rogues do it better. He said that it was "very good" compared to Ret pallies, Enh shaman and DKs. He also said that it was even very good compared to warriors, but admitted that it was a "stretch." (He also said he thought monks might be better, and suggested that ferals were comparable.)

But please, don't stop demonizing the man on my account and trying to oversimplify both the problem and its potential solutions.
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