Comparing Brewmaster vs. Prot Paladin

90 Blood Elf Priest
0
We're in 10 normal, working on Lei Shen this week. Our Brewmaster (new to tanking at the start of MoP) wasn't enjoying the mechanics for his class, so he leveled and geared a Paladin. His Monk hit ilevel 515 last week, the Paladin had 2-3 weeks of LFR and we brought him for 2 kills on Jin'Rokh in the past (got a piece or two). Paladin is at ilevel 490 (really more like 494 because the two 476 PvP pieces have stats similar to 496 gear). He tanked all the way through Animus just fine. Went through the logs and compared performance:

HORRIDON KILL (length 9:03 on Monk fight, 8:43 for Paladin)
Damage taken: 29.1M for Monk, 12.8M for Paladin
Healing: 7.7M for Monk, 5.6M for Paladin
Net heals required: 21.4M for Monk, 7.2M for Paladin
DPS: 103.8k for Monk, 79.0k for Paladin

JI-KUN KILL (length 7:10 for Monk, 6:17 for Paladin)
Damage taken: 26.3M for Monk, 14.8M for Paladin
Healing: 8.7M for Monk, 7.6M for Paladin
Net heals required: 17.6M for Monk, 7.2M for Paladin
DPS: 62.3k for Monk, 59.5k for Paladin

DARK ANIMUS KILL (length 5:09 for Monk, 5:05 for Paladin)
Damage taken: 20.5M for Monk, 13.6M for Paladin
Healing: 4.0M for Monk, 5.2M for Paladin
Net heals requires: 16.5M for Monk, 8.4M for Paladin
DPS: 52.3k for Monk, 49.6k for Paladin

Simply subtracting healing done from damage taken might not be the best measure of mitigation, but that aside it seems like in lesser gear the Paladin requires a LOT less healing. Overall the damage came with fewer spikes. In equal gear, I think the Paladin will take smaller hits, less total damage, do more healing, do more damage, and seems to have more cooldowns available (ability to wipe tank debuffs, etc).

The only issue we ran into was he wasn't able to pick up bats on Tortos as easily (so we let him stay on the boss and had the DK grab them).

Now maybe he was just a horrible Monk tank, and the Paladin toolkit suits him much better. I resisted suggestions that Paladins were that much better tanks than Monks, but after this week I'm starting to believe.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
1.) Paladins are a little strong now

2.) Most of it is probably him not being (as) good at his monk
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90 Human Paladin
10050
World of Logs records full hits, then puts absorbs in a separate area under damage taken. Since the Brewmaster mastery is an absorb, damage taken is going to look inflated, due to both recording the full hit, and the stagger ticks. (Which are a portion of the hit taken, not additional damage)

For example: Let's say your Brewmaster has 50% stagger, and takes a 500k hit without purifying it. World of Logs is going to record the full 500k hit, then the 250k stagger. The Monk's damage taken is going to say 750k, when that's much higher than the actual damage taken.

A better way to look at aggregate damage taken is to look at healing taken, because I'm 100% positive that your Brewmaster's healing taken is nowhere near as high as what WoL is reporting his damage taken. I'm not going to refute that Paladins are the stronger tank this tier, but the gap in damage taken isn't that large, even with suboptimal play on his Monk.

(I referenced http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1289724-Accurate-Dmg-Taken-from-WoL)
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
World of Logs records full hits, then puts absorbs in a separate area under damage taken. Since the Brewmaster mastery is an absorb, damage taken is going to look inflated, due to both recording the full hit, and the stagger ticks. (Which are a portion of the hit taken, not additional damage
(I referenced http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1289724-Accurate-Dmg-Taken-from-WoL)


That brings things a little closer to reality then. I'd assumed the absorb would have been ignored, with wiped Stagger being ignored too, or credited as both damage taken and healing done. It isn't as dire as the logs would seem then.

I like unconventional approaches and kinda hoped he'd stick with the monk, but I think he's going to continue with his Paladin in the last tier.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
Paladins and Monks are both the super-OP tank classes this tier. Most of the reasoning behind Paladins being stronger has to do with clearing tank debuffs and bringing more raid utility (healing and raid cooldowns), not because of actual tanking/mitigation mechanics. On that front, you could argue both ways and in fact, Monks have clear advantages on some fights.

It may be entirely possible that he's just really, really comfortable with the Paladin toolkit and didn't enjoy or really like the Monk one. I'm pretty much the same way - I have a Brewmaster alt that's scratching ~500 ilvl and I have no intention of really raiding on it. If I had to swap mains, I'd probably just give up, because I'm not good at it and I doubt I ever will be.

Brewmasters have good self-healing - it's just that one of the core ones is Gift of the Ox, which spawns little orbs on the ground to the sides of your toon and you have to actually strafe your toon to the sides to pick them up in order to heal yourself. It strikes me as silly and unnecessary. If you underuse or neglect that mechanic, then your other self-healing or absorb mechanics are not going to stack up at all.

There are some other mechanics that seem a little less than intuitive to me, and probably may seem that way to him too. I'd talk to him about it rather than us, honestly.

As far as the bats on Tortos - yeah that's not really easy as a Paladin, we have no way to get snap threat on things in the air. Taking Light's Hammer as a level 90 talent allows us to get a ground AoE in the spot where they're probably going to land (hopefully) but I honestly could not tank that on heroic without a skilled hunter in the raid. It would be completely, 100% impossible.
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90 Undead Warrior
15325
Really wish they would do something about the clear discrepancy between prot paladins/brewmasters and the other tank classes in terms of raid utility. I'm sitting here watching my guild do Ra-den because our ret paladin is going prot for this fight. He brings so much more utility than I ever will on most fights.
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90 Undead Warlock
3945
warriors still take the least physical damage,dks still laugh at magic damage, bears cope best with multiple attackers, pallys deal with debuffs the best, and monks are the most mobile each has a role that they fit why do topics like this keep coming up tank balance is good

utility is something else entirely which each class brings without having to tank so leave it out of it
warriors have ralling cry, banners,msr,demoshout
dks have amz, aod,brez,chains
bears brez, inervate,stampeding roar, symbiosis
monks get black ox statue, rop,lvl 30 talent
pallys get devaura,60,45,90,blessings

so really pallys get 1 more monks get 1 less so how exactly is utility an issue
Edited by Rottinggoth on 5/23/2013 4:52 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
14145
If you are comparing utility though you have to look at the strength of that utility. Take bears for instance. Brez is nice, and pretty strong. Innervate though is next to worthless. It regens 6k mana total on a 2-min cd. Stampeding Roar is ok if the raid has to move, but generally a few seconds of burst movement won't make or break anything. Symbiosis is pretty much a joke all around unless you happen to have a monk or DK in the group, which is a serious issue for 10-mans. Not saying bears are worthless, but comparing utility you need to look at the strength of that utility as well.
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97 Pandaren Monk
19680
warriors still take the least physical damage,dks still laugh at magic damage, bears cope best with multiple attackers, pallys deal with debuffs the best, and monks are the most mobile each has a role that they fit why do topics like this keep coming up tank balance is good

utility is something else entirely which each class brings without having to tank so leave it out of it
warriors have ralling cry, banners,msr,demoshout
dks have amz, aod,brez,chains
bears brez, inervate,stampeding roar, symbiosis
monks get black ox statue, rop,lvl 30 talent
pallys get devaura,60,45,90,blessings

so really pallys get 1 more monks get 1 less so how exactly is utility an issue


listing ring of peace as utility? really? it's only usefull on megaera. Some people say it works on some mobs of Horridon, but aoe stun does a much better job in that fight.

Bress have a cap and is brought by several other classes in a raid group. Generally speaking, the tank's BRs is the last one you want to use.

Army of the Dead as utility? ... on which fight?

Chains of Ice as utility? ...... where? Everyone and their mother have slows. Or are you talking about wotlk Chains of Ice that did 90% slow and then lowered it's % over time? yeah .... it's not like that anymore.

Symbiosis as raid utility for a bear? all he gets is defensive cooldowns or stuff to use on himself.

And you don't bring tank A or B because he has 6 raid utilities and the other have 5. You bring tank A or B because of how good, whatever he brings, is on that fight.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11685
Your tank clearly does not understand Monk tanking. Glad he switched.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9455
It's been my understanding that you can't stun Horridon mobs. I've tried both Leg Sweep and Ox Charge and all I get is Immune (x9 hits).

That said, I was casting Ring on my cotank after Dire Calls since I was on the boss the whole fight.
Edited by Meixie on 5/23/2013 10:19 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Hah I expected the "bad monk" comments.

I'm the paladin in question that is switching from my Brewmaster. I'll tell you exactly why I am making the switch. Keep in mind that a lot of this is opinion based.

Let me start out by saying that Brewmasters are more fun to play. They are good tanks, once geared to a certain point. At lower ilvls Brewmasters have relatively low HP and low haste which can cause "squishy" issues and discourage early monk tanks if they don't play perfectly.

There definitely is a skill-cap for BrM, and I believe that I am fairly proficient with my monk. I don't have survival issues - quite frankly I feel almost un-killable at times.

BrM has much better aoe threat capabilities and aoe damage.

So here is my list:

1) Healing Taken/required
My monk usually requires less healing taken on WoL meters than my other tank, but breaking it down tells a different story.

Looking at my individual heal by actor stats, my healers actually have to heal me more then my co-tank, sometimes significantly more. But why?

BrM self-healing is not as good as it sounds on paper. Expel Harm is good. Chi Wave and Zen Sphere are fairly good too. Self guard is situational. Gift of the Ox is not as good as it should be, in my opinion. It spawns randomly, and most fights don't allow for me to place them where I would want them. Magaera and Ji-kun are really the only ToT bosses in which I can reliably know where the spheres will collect at. Even then I have to decide if I want to step on the spheres now, or wait and bank them up for later. I think it needs some rework.

Stagger is the second issue. Sure, more than half of my incoming physical damage is staggered, but it's not really "absorbed". The damage is still looming and will come over the next 10 seconds. So purify right? Sure, but I can't purify all the time. I simply can't. I can't generate enough chi fast enough to purify constantly while keeping up shuffle and guarding at the right times. So often stagger will tick, and I won't clear it until it gets to yellow and red levels. By then, I have taken good chunks of my staggered damage, which the healers would have had to heal.

On my Paladin once damage is mitigated, it's gone. Nothing looming over the next 10 seconds, no having to plan out when exactly to purify it. Sacred Shield is just great, and my seal just heals me while I attack.

2) Raid Healing
Black Ox Statue needs some work. I can see high healing numbers on logs for it, but when I actually go through the logs, I see a different story. For example, on Tortos my Black Ox Statue continually shielded the same 3 people over and over. Proc requirements also scale with vengeance, so getting more vengeance doesn't increase the frequency in which the shields proc unless I have a nice AOE situation, like Tortos or Lei Shen, but you see what happened on Tortos...

Paladin? I don't even have to place a statue down. Vengeance? Increases healing output.

3) Quality of Life
It really boils down to a QoL issue. I feel Paladins have the tools to handle more boss abilities in an easier manner. It's just easier and I feel I tax my healers less all while contributing to my raid more. I even bopped some Horridon stacks off my co-tank the other night and on Durumu because I could. Tank switch? I have the option to put a huge sacred shield on my co-tank while my vengeance is still high.

Fine, call me a bad monk, I don't think I am. Tanking is not usually our issue during wipes. My healers aren't complaining about me. But now that they and I have seen the difference I don't regret switching... yet.

Quite frankly, after playing BrW since MoP release, playing this Paladin is almost too easy...
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90 Pandaren Monk
9510
Damn you. Now I want to level up my 85 pally alt. (former main)
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Quite frankly, after playing BrW since MoP release, playing this Paladin is almost too easy...


Easier to stay alive, easier to play, but not as much fun. Looking at your logs, you were doing just fine playing your monk, good uptime on things that mattered.

This past week, I took this BrM into our normal 25 man, at 507 ilvl. We couldn't get past Tortos before I had to switch back to my paladin due to healing concerns. I just don't feel as safe on the BrM at our guilds level of play.
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97 Pandaren Monk
19680
It's been my understanding that you can't stun Horridon mobs. I've tried both Leg Sweep and Ox Charge and all I get is Immune (x9 hits).

That said, I was casting Ring on my cotank after Dire Calls since I was on the boss the whole fight.


you can't stun the mobs that jump from audience (which is 3 per door) and the dinomancer. But all the other "small adds" that stream from the doors you can stun.

in terms of cast, the only relevant casts in this fight is poison bolt volley.

And you can mark the venon-priests before the fight starts (yes, they are right there in the audience, the 3 of them), and assign an interrupt to each .. since they only cast it every 15-20 sec.

So it's basically Charging Ox Wave, which is usefull on every door to stun the little guys ... or RoP to silence the venon priests, which can (and should) be interrupted anyway.

All in all, it boils down to personal preference .. I just rather have the stun. And personally, after the cooldown change I find Ox Wave to be much more usefull than Leg Sweep. Most of those aoe situations the mobs aren't exactly all around you .. and they are often kinda "spread" in front of you. So Ox Wave allows you to use it more often and have a much larger "area of effect".

But anyway, calling RoP a raid utility (like the guy did) is a very big stretch.
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90 Undead Warlock
3945
so a aoe disarm/silence in not utility now ok, i can feelz the bad brewing people lacking understanding of utility, apparently lowering a tanks incoming damage doesn't count, nor does mass add pick up and slow, and there was one tinsy thing i may have forgot to mention as with your tanking your utility has purpose or not fight dependent, ill give a couple of examples

amz was useful on feng, AoD i can see being useful on dark animus as with CoI, ghoul pick up dps takes them out if ghouls lose threat CoI to slow them on the way to deeps(givin you'll want chillbrians) i canahaz raid awarez, i think you might be forgetting symbiosis give a durad ability to like tranq to other classes as well

might also like to point out that the utility doesn't have to be the tanks responsibility classes have skillz yo classes should be using the utility whenever its required doesn't have to be the tank doing it

And you don't bring tank A or B because he has 6 raid utilities and the other have 5. You bring tank A or B because of how good, whatever he brings, is on that fight.
you got it right on that, player not the class a good player will use there utility an average wont
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90 Pandaren Monk
9455
We had the Venom Priest interrupts down. Each interrupter would call and mark, etc. I switched into RoP to give the other tank a few seconds of disarms while they're all hitting harder.
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1 Draenei Paladin
0
You can disarm Jalak. That's sure as hell worth the talent point.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9455
I forgot about that, yeah. Spear Hand Strike and Ring will nerf 2 of his cries.
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